Pitboss etiquette

[Mjmd]

IIRC it was you who declared war yes? Then it's on you to not double move, and the defender can if he wants to.

In situations without war, I'd be fine with just allowing settler race double moves, because there's no way for no-one to get the advantage.

I can tell you I was half a turn behind in one of my races (or at least thought I was), so yes 100% double moving would have affected. Now I was able to get out of that situation because I could block by declaring war, but 100% double moving would matter.

[Jowy]

IIRC it was you who declared war yes? Then it's on you to not double move, and the defender can if he wants to.

In situations without war, I'd be fine with just allowing settler race double moves, because there's no way for no-one to get the advantage.

I can tell you I was half a turn behind in one of my races (or at least thought I was), so yes 100% double moving would have affected. Now I was able to get out of that situation because I could block by declaring war, but 100% double moving would matter.

My point is that someone will always have to move first. Say both have played an even 50 turns. Someone will have to make the next move and get the advantage of playing the 51st turn first.

[mackoti]

IIRC it was you who declared war yes? Then it's on you to not double move, and the defender can if he wants to.

In situations without war, I'd be fine with just allowing settler race double moves, because there's no way for no-one to get the advantage.

I can tell you I was half a turn behind in one of my races (or at least thought I was), so yes 100% double moving would have affected. Now I was able to get out of that situation because I could block by declaring war, but 100% double moving would matter.

My point is that someone will always have to move first. Say both have played an even 50 turns. Someone will have to make the next move and get the advantage of playing the 51st turn first.

WHat JOwy said, its true, we need a better way to do staff.

[Mjmd]

I believe that is when the Germans would say they are better than us and just roll a dice to determine turn order. As I mentioned in the PB58 tech thread this would require people to recognize they might be in a settler race, but the current rules already do that.

[Serdoa]

I'll just mention that you both make exactly the error I mentioned in my post: You mix double-moving with who gets which part of the turn.

@mjmd

1) As for the current situation: No matter if that would be the case, if we agree to use a ruleset and need a decision that decision needs to be based on the current ruleset. I actually did from the posts in my thread get the impression that lurkers started to discuss if the rules are ok - that is fine to do, but it is too late for this game if not all player unanimously decide to change the rules. And I can guarantee that the chances are slim for that to happen while there is a decision pending. (edit: It also puts an unfair burden on the one that would benefit from following the rules that are in place.)

As for the other part: You are not disfavored per se by having the second half imo. I actually offered to take it in PB58. The issue was not that I needed or wanted the first half, just that I had played under the impression that I would have it and moved accordingly. If I knew I had the second half, I would act accordingly to that. But I had the first half in one turn and the second in the next. 

Interestingly enough I can't remember that I ever heard that being a problem in PBEMs, though I know that some systems did elect to give a (very slight) bonus to players later in the turn order because they would always lose any "coinflip" for wonders etc.

Anyhow, I talked in my post about rhetorical tricks and though I'm fairly certain you did not do it intentionally you asked a leading question:

Should settling races just favor people that have more availability?

Of course settling races should not favor people that have more availability. But do they? You presuppose that having the second half is automatically disfavorable to you. I would disagree. You gain

- the advantage that we discussed at large already about being second in turn order in a war scenario
- being second also allows you to react to what your opponent did so you are "one step ahead" the next turn with builds in reaction to his actions, unit movements etc. 

For example: A settling race can have started with you in the second half realizing that this settling race is about to happen while your opponent does not yet know it. You therefore might move units to the scene in question, which will arrive there a turn earlier given equal distances even though you are second in turn order. 

@Jowy: The war declaration was after the reload, Ruff double moved me before the war declaration. As for your other point please see above. What you propose would actually lead to what Mjmd is fearing, favoring those with enough time to log in at every opportunity. It would also lead to clock games because why would anyone that expects the possibility of a settler race ever NOT play in a way that he is last to end turn? If I'm free to double-move and it will gain me a clear advantage (note: double-move, not being first or second in turn order) I will certainly do that, even to the detriment of all involved. 

(Everyone can feel free now to tell me that they are an angel and would never do that intentionally. I'll just nod over to Lord Parkin.)

[Mjmd]

I'll amend to "if you win the coin flip / dice roll you get to choose half of the turn".

Again this runs into the issue in PB58 where you recognized it and then didn't send a PM (which I can easily see happening). I stayed out of the PB58 tech thread discussion except to ask initial question and then after it had been decided, but a lot of it was that the rules as currently written meant you should have sent a PM and therefore Ruff didn't do anything wrong.

[Jowy]

I believe that is when the Germans would say they are better than us and just roll a dice to determine turn order. As I mentioned in the PB58 tech thread this would require people to recognize they might be in a settler race, but the current rules already do that.

That's fair. Maybe a less hassle version would be to either randomize the order at the beginning, or tie it to a picking method. Then you just follow that order for any disputes.

[superdeath]

I'll amend to "if you win the coin flip / dice roll  you get to choose half of the turn".

Again this runs into the issue in PB58 where you recognized it and then didn't send a PM (which I can easily see happening). I stayed out of the PB58 tech thread discussion except to ask initial question and then after it had been decided, but a lot of it was that the rules as currently written meant you should have sent a PM and therefore Ruff didn't do anything wrong.

THIS

[Serdoa]

Hi Serdoa, I'm having trouble reading your posts because they feel like you're attacking me for something. Is that the case or is something being lost in translation?

I've tried in this thread to do the exact thing that you're accusing me of not doing - codifying the general consensus so that we stop issues from occurring before they do. I have opinions about all these things, but I'm not the arbiter. I'd like to have a level-headed discussion about things and see what everyone (who chips in) thinks and then change the first post to reflect whatever gets agreed.

If you said anything after calling me foolish I didn't read it so I can't reply to it.

Well, I did not call you foolish but your argument. Which I stand by Harry, from my point of view it is foolish.

@Mjmd, superdeath

Please show me which part of the ruleset does state "you have to send your opponent an information about the turn split"? Because I've read it several times and that is nowhere in there. We can discuss about amending them by it of course but I truly believe I've done nothing wrong and I feel it is unfair to blame me for not doing something that was actually never requested of me in the first place.

[Charriu]

I think I am to blame for that. Yes it is never stated to inform the other side, but I believe doing so can prevent reload situations