[59] Miguelito and Rusten move stacks to berimbau rythms

[Rusten]

True, you've sidestepped many of my initial concerns. Is your newest opening added to the spreadsheet? I'd like to play through it for a closer look at the efficiency and long term potential.

Oracle-MC-Colossus would be incredible, but very hard to pull off in this field.
HG makes a lot of sense. MoM is less of a priority as we really want Nationhood early for drafting.
Feels like a golden age for OR/HR+religion is too early, but maybe it makes sense on these settings. We could be fairly developed by then. If so I would definitely grab CoL before the GA and run specialists during it.

If we have caste in time for the 1st GS golden age we can easily produce more GPs too. Perhaps aim to bulb philosophy before the GA ends and switch to pacifism -- keeping that until the end of our 2nd GA. Theoretically we could go what I will often call the "single player route" of delaying machinery, feudalism, guilds and instead bulbing phi+education and taking nationalism with liberalism. If we go for this we can delay masonry and monotheism for much later, instead going early CoL. Just a thought, in case the game leads us towards such a path. One of many possible plans. I'd only feel comfortable doing this with a very specific set of neighbours 

Another possible sequence is early CoL --> trigger golden age --> use extra production for HG and get a merchant out to bulb currency. Less restrictive, but also less to gain. Currency is more expensive here than in other games so the GM bulb is more efficient than otherwise.

[Miguelito]

I've tinkered in the spreadsheet up to t42.

Pottery t40, capital granary t41, city 2 t42. Both with no overflow at size 3 .

Assuming I have no error in the spreadesheet* that feels pretty good.

* besides the peril of just wrong entries, I also have no maintenance and trade route commerce accounted for, assuming they will cancel each other out more or less. But the pottery finish is pretty tight (3 beakers OF). I'll have to check it in the sandbox, will try to tonight.


I menat to research MC the old fashioned way. Maybe not feasible on the huge map, but we'll have the prereqs very early, and expect to have a leg up with commerce. BW->Fihsing->Pottery->Hunting->AH(->Sailing)->MC. Also whoever oracles MC may feel secure and not hurry too much with the wonder build, but we should only do it if we feel the forges would be reward enough.

I understand that your CoL proposals (in particular the currency bulb) would involve the monarchy push, as we'd have to go over priesthood? So priesthood -> CoL - launch GA - research monarchy and bulb currency meanwhile? Well, we can reassess around t50 I suppose (same goes for MC)

[Miguelito]

Ok so that does check out, but the earlier granaries come at a significant delay of the settler (whipped t46 instead of 43), and them being earlier does not actually help a lot. That plan has a chop less though, and an early cottage around t44.

status t45 with delayed granaries:
3 forests chopped, city 3 settler moved 1 turn, 2 granaries, mining/BW/fishing/pottery/hunting finished, 1 warrior built, 2 more in queue at 13/15 and 14/15 (although they should be feasible to finish earlier. Fish nets, 2 wheat farms, PH mine, sheep farm. Cities at szizes 2 (12/24 food) and 3 (25/26, ok that should be improvable)

Tech wise with the plains hill mine it all falls into place more nicely; the work boat is just 1 turn early as Fishing is finished with 90/90, and hunting also is just finishing t44 after the chops.

[Rusten]

I like your opening it seems we've finally made a non-awkward BW start.

Question: How many civs with fishing do we need to meet to reliably gain 1 beaker on the tech (KTB)? Because I'm 1 beaker short of a 1T faster settler (everything else basically the same, except dropping 1 commerce one of the turns).

My attempt at improving the opening involves switching from ivory to a forest to create enough overflow to push the settler to 40/100 instead of 37/100 (delaying the completion of the warrior and putting hammers into wb meanwhile).

[Rusten]

Screenshots for reference:

[Miguelito]

Question: How many civs with fishing do we need to meet to reliably gain 1 beaker on the tech (KTB)? Because I'm 1 beaker short of a 1T faster settler (everything else basically the same, except dropping 1 commerce one of the turns).

I'm not quite sure. It sort of seems that three is enough to save 1 beaker from the debonification of the BW overflow, but that might be an artifact of the spreadsheet.
For consistent extra beakers from KTB we need 7 contacts with the tech (yup, big game - do we want to send a WB out early maybe?).

For BW with the prereq modificator it kicks in at 4 contacts already once we're at size 3, but unlikely (would all need to be mining starters)


That's a really nice micro maneuvre of yours there. I guess we don't really have a means to generate the missing beaker on our own though (unless city2 has a 2 commerce tile that is). Maybe something can be done with the slider the turn we research overflow, to get rid of the debonification loss and then have gold to research at 100% after city 2 gets up? 12 and 6 beakers get debonified without a loss.

[Rusten]

Would be amazing if we could make it work somehow -- it's a big upgrade.

Even if we fail to find the beaker the warrior can overflow on the ivory tile and we can pause the settler for a turn (putting 1t into wb) and then reach 40/100 using the mine that completes. That doesn't get the city 1t earlier like my initial suggestion, it just means 1 less turn putting/wasting food into a settler. The wb should still finish in time and we'll be closer to size 3, but I've not played this out.

edit: Or just whip 1t earlier and delay fish tile for a turn, that could still be better but IDK. I really want both the beaker and the early settler.

[Miguelito]

I can't manage to find that beaker. I've tried to save 4 gold on the turn we research BW, to run 100% after we found the 2nd city, but no, 89/90.
If it delays fishing, I'm not quite sure it's worth it.
First, the earlier city still gets its wheat at the same time, as the worker has to finish the ivory road first.
Second, while I know how you despise to spend food on workers/settlers, getting minimal overflow from the settler here means that we have to work the mine for several turns. Which results in slower growth of the cap, which delays the 2nd worker and in turn the next settler and granaries. In my old sim the food is just enough to grow back to size 3 in 3 turns after the whip. The thing is, we need the hammers for the WB rather fast, but we can't whip or chop it in time.

Maybe if city 2 has a 2c tile (and still the trade connection).

Btw the scout. On the FPH first or wander off straight?
I feel like the FPH could be where an easter egg / alternative capital plot is hidden.
We also still don't know yet where exactly the scout will start.

[Rusten]

I think you misunderstand me, because what I'm suggesting as a back-up doesn't slow down the fish.

My version has 19 food in the basket EOT 2720 BC (0 overflow hammers and 0 into warrior), whereas yours has either 15F and 3 hammers into a warrior or 13F and 6 hammers into a warrior. In a vacuum 4F is much better than 3H, especially hammers that go into a warrior we probably don't need.







This comes from producing warrior with overflow, putting said warrior overflow into settler and then spending the next turn building the work boat (4th citizen as 0F/3H tile) and then switching back to settler again. Sheep is worked while settler moves and then mine when city #2 is settled still finishes the wb in time.

[Rusten]

Now I didn't play on yet, so IDK how this works long term, but short term it's an upgrade.

As for scout wander 1NE is best in terms of movement, but we'd feel really stupid if PH reveals gems or similar. Maybe PH and then S-SE if we don't find anything.