[SPOILERS] Woden and ljubljana like boats

[ljubljana]

Turn 83 - Phoenicia



Naval Tradition comes in, and, somewhat incredibly, I'm actually first to a medieval civic for a nice +2 ES! I don't immediately swap to Naval Infrastructure though, because a) Colonization is still mandatory and b) Linear A needs to start the campus as soon as its horseman completes, which means being size 4 when the horseman completes, which means being in Republican Legacy for just a few more turns to get us there. I'll swap out as soon as Military Tradition comes in though, of course. I do swap into Maneuver to boost the sad, slow horse build (and therefore out of Conscription for a few turns). Apparently, I'm also still in the running for first to a medieval tech with Castles in 9t, which will come down after the swap.

What to do about Mitla? It currently blocks my settler pair from moving south, and I'm tempted to declare war just to get past its borders - does that seem okay to you? Mitla will also be suzereigned by Kaiser in (I think) two turns, so I might need to be careful about making peace with them to avoid getting locked into peace with Mitla as well. We might honestly be able to take the city with just your two quads and my bireme at 22 defensive strength, so maybe attacking in the next turn or two could be a good idea for that reason as well. At any rate, certainly either the next bireme completing at Hieratic or either of your longships arriving will seal the deal. Thoughts?



The big news of the turn - TAD has attacked Hattusa! Can we do anything to interfere with this conquest, and, moreover, do we want to? I'm not sure our ships are fully healed enough to do so without leaving Akkad exposed, but I move a pair of biremes down anyways to see what's up and hopefully spot a Royal Dockyard to pillage or something. I do have two more healthy ships I can bring down if you think it's a good idea - with five boats in total (including your healthy longship), we should have good odds to either disrupt the conquest itself or (more likely) achieve a string of pillages and opportunistic ship kills in the English core while the bulk of the navy's away.



Hey, Mohenjo-Daro has its walls up. This is an amazing dumping ground for my envoys, since my cities are hurting so badly for housing, and I'll be suzereign in just 2 turns thanks to Amani to offset the coming swap out of Republican Legacy. I think I'll want to briefly swap Amani into Antananarivo at some point this era to try to steal suzereignty from roland for era score, but other than that she's probably here to stay. That swap will most likely be timed to coincide with a 1t swap to the double-envoy policy, which I'll probably do by getting both Theology and D&P one turn from completion and finishing both somewhere in the mid-t90s.

One more ES-related thing - in two turns I can declare phony war on CMF for 2 ES. Feel free to stop me or ask for a delay if you're worried about your eastern CS conquests coming under fire as a result, but I think I'm going to do so unless I hear otherwise.

As for you (ljubljana) settling the city near the natural wonder and then gifting it to me, I will have to re-read the game thread. I know there was discussion on city trade and I think we landed on cities can be traded once but not sure if there were other conditions. If it is against the rules of the game, it might be better for me to settle it. I want 2 holy sites down there for the faith income to buy troops once I can build the Grand Master's Chapel. It would be only way to build halfway decent units, since production is so scarce.

I'm not quite sure how to read the game thread on this. It looks like thrawn proposed a rule that got some support which would have prohibited this, allowing one trade per conquered city but zero trades for domestically founded cities. CMF's suggestion was simply "no cheese with city gifting, ask the lurkers if you're not sure if it's cheese" - I'm not sure whether I'd think this was cheesy enough to prohibit as a lurker, but it's probably borderline at least. Unfortunately, it's not clear to me which, if any, of the proposals actually ended up being the official rule for the game... Anyways, let's see how close I can get in terms of ES with things like being first to a horse unit, first to a medieval tech, etc. If I can hit the GA threshold with just a tundra city or a city on a third continent, it definitely makes more sense for you to settle by the NW if there's no legal way for me to give the city to you.

[Woden]

Turn 83-Vikings

Since you were going to declare on Mitla, I figured I would get it started by hitting them with my 2 quads...
   

We should be okay here concerning Japan/England. All we need to do is just not make peace until we capture the city state. If Kaiser becomes suzerain and then moves Amani somewhere else, we will get forced peace but can declare war again right away. Only if we make peace with Japan/England, do we need to wait the 10 turns.

Looking around at what religious beliefs have been taken, I notice that DotF is still available...
   

I am a little surprised nobody has taken it yet. DotF crossbows can do serious damage to a frigate. I should get my religion in 11 turns and probably will take it. I think I will probably go with Jesuit Education for the followers belief. I don't know how useful it would be but could supplement some production of science buildings.

One thing I didn't see on your list of Era points was getting a next tier government. I am currently working on Divine Right, which opens Monarchy. You should be able to get there before the era change, especially when it is boosted when I complete it. Here is the path...
   

Here is my empire...
   

The quad out of Thor is heading south to take the barb camp just off our southern tip, then will hit the camp by Rapa Nui (I really should change the name). The island south of Rapa Nui is a third continent if you are looking for more era points.

I think my capital will put out a settler before working on the ancestral hall, so it can sail south while the hall is being built. If I can research Theology and build my unique temple in Frigg, I should be able to get enough points myself for another Golden Age. All my other cities will finish their builders, then monuments, then harbors.

[ljubljana]

We might want some mid-turn discussion on this one...



TAD offers to cede WotW in exchange for us backing off our attack at Mitla (since Kaiser will suzereign there next turn and will presumably keep Amani in place indefinitely to block us afterwards). What do you think? Here's the situation at Mitla after my bireme attacks:



I'm inclined to turn him down for now - I think we should be favored to take the city in 2-3 turns, and one unoccupied city + an occupied half-city is still better than one unoccupied city. I also don't really see any threats out from TAD that would make a peace deal more attractive. Rejecting this deal might mean WotW will stay occupied for the forseeable future, but I think I'm okay with taking that chance. Just thought I'd confirm with you before committing us to more war, though.

Also, taking Mitla coupled with the two settlers I'll have on the map in 5 turns actually gives me an extremely narrow outside shot at the largest empire ES points. CMF is my nearest competitor, and they have the same number of cities as I do - if they have no more cities settled in the next 7 turns, I might be able to make it happen.

I can't believe DoTF is still on the board! DoTF + Jesuit Education is a very good religion, way better than you'd usually expect to get with the 4th pick.

Good call on Divine Right, I'll definitely plan to make that happen before the era change. ES math would then look like:

horseman +1
Castles +1
Monarchy +2
CMF Formal War +2
Cuneiform CH +3
Linear A Campus +3

= 12 points guaranteed or semi-guaranteed out of 16 required. I should be able to make up the last four points with some combination of settlers + Great Admiral + Mohenjo-Daro suzereignty without too much risk. I guess I could also embark a warrior and/or the horse to work on barb camps somewhere if we think it'll be close.

[Woden]

TAD offers to cede WotW in exchange for us backing off our attack at Mitla (since Kaiser will suzereign there next turn and will presumably keep Amani in place indefinitely to block us afterwards). What do you think? 

How do you figure it is exchange for us backing off of Mitla? I just attacked them on my turn and you play right after. They don't even know we attacked yet. I say accept it if they are not currently suzerain. Peace will happen immediately and then there is no chance for them to force peace with Mitla. We won't be forced peace when they get suzerain because technically we aren't at war with them (if you make peace before they get suzerain) when they get suzerain.

[ljubljana]

Wait, if we're at war with Mitla and then make peace with TAD/Kaiser, and then Kaiser suzereigns on their next turn, will that not force us to make peace with Mitla? I thought it would, but if you're saying it won't, then yeah, there's no reason not to accept. What are the conditions that would lead to a forced peace with Mitla?

Well, and also I escaped out of the deal before posting here which means I'd have to re-propose with TAD accepting on their turn. TAD moves before Kaiser, though, so that should still happen before Kaiser suzereigns. It is seriously so annoying that the game treats leaving the deal screen as a rejection - now TAD will see that we attacked Mitla before deciding whether to accept or not, which could change their mind That's my fault of course, though - sorry for that unforced error.

[Woden]

Wait, if we're at war with Mitla and then make peace with TAD, and then Kaiser suzereigns, will that not force us to make peace with Mitla? I thought it would, but if you're saying it won't, then yeah, there's no reason not to accept. What are the conditions that would lead to a forced peace with Mitla?

If we make peace when they are currently the suzerain, then we get the forced 10 turns of peace. Double check the number of envoys they have in Milta before offering peace. If it is 3 or more, they are suzerain and we should not make peace. If it is less than 3, we can make peace. 

Also, for future reference, if we are at war with someone and they lose suzerain, we make peace with the city state but can re-declare right away. The only way we get forced to 10 turns of peace is if we make peace directly with the city state or we make peace with their current suzerain.

[ljubljana]

Not sure how to directly check how many envoys they have (is there a way to do this?) but this indicates that they're not suzereign, though they're definitely close (see my t80 screenshot where they already have Amani on the way there). I'll go ahead and re-offer peace then?

[Woden]

Not sure how to directly check how many envoys they have (is there a way to do this?) but this indicates that they're not suzereign, though they're definitely close (see my t80 screenshot where they already have Amani on the way there). I'll go ahead and re-offer peace then?

Click on the city state (Mitla) and then click on "Influenced by" button. It will show how many envoys each player has in the city state.

Edit: The question that needs to be answered is: "Does Amani establish at the beginning of the turn or the beginning of the player's turn?"

[ljubljana]

So they'll be suzereign when Amani establishes, but aren't right now, which means Amani is not currently established. Given that, it's okay for me to offer peace to TAD, right? That is, there's no chance that Amani will establish at the beginning of TAD's turn, right? I assume if TAD accepts, peace will happen immediately, which means we'll already be at peace if Kaiser suzereigns on their next turn, but that understanding could also be incorrect.

[Woden]

So they'll be suzereign when Amani establishes, but aren't right now, which means Amani is not currently established. Given that, it's okay for me to offer peace to TAD, right? That is, there's no chance that Amani will establish at the beginning of TAD's turn, right? I assume if TAD accepts, peace will happen immediately, which means we'll already be at peace if Kaiser suzereigns on their next turn, but that understanding could also be incorrect.

Yes, you are correct but another thing to consider, TAD might hold the offer a turn and make peace the turn after, when Japan is suzerain. Then, we would get a 10-turn enforced peace. Not sure if it is possible to hold it a turn but might be. Maybe it is best to not offer peace until we take Mitla, just to be safe.