[SPOILERS] Woden and ljubljana like boats

[Woden]

They were limited by the iron they could send you because last turn you were at 28 and only have storage for 50, right? So, this might be a "give us back Akkad or you will get the iron"? IDK but right call. I don't see them making any progress until Cartography and being able to move into the ocean.

We do have to be careful that they don't go around and attack our cities. Luckily, I do have a quad and longboat south of Geneva and another pair coming around from the attack on Milta. I will have to see about about doing another round of quads to help out. I also have a couple more longboats that I can start heading over once I start building boats again. I want to keep a few around the eastern side of our island in case CMF launches an attack.

[ljubljana]

Oh, I guess I was, that makes sense. Well, probably the most likely interpretation then is "give us back Akkad or we're declaring forever war", which, while disappointing (especially since they were willing to cede it less than 10 turns ago?) is pretty much what we thought we were getting ourselves into when we launched this attack. I guess time will tell whether it ends up actually having been worth it. I think if I had taken peace when they'd first offered, it would have been (maybe someday I'll stop beating myself up over that ) but now I'm not so sure... Still not sure I understand the 6g though...maybe that part is in reference to when they're getting knights, or something like that.

[Woden]

Do they have a DoF with anybody? Gold sometimes is used to tell how many turns are left in a friendship. But not sure why they would want us to know.

Anyways, if they do have knights coming, just remember, embarked units are as strong as your strongest melee ship. So, unless they get caravels, they will have a galley's base strength in the water and we should be able to sink them.

[Woden]

If it was Kaiser sending the deal, I could see him just going with the "peace or war" message, as I did something similar in PBEM18 to him but that was with only 1 iron.

[ljubljana]

Don't know if they have a DoF with anyone, but that would make some sense. If they do, the message is probably "give us back Akkad and we'll attack our DoF partner in 6 turns when it runs out. Otherwise, it's forever war". I wonder if they're DoF'ed with CMF? That would make a lot of sense, the message in that case being "we'll join you in your war that you just declared if you give us Akkad back".

I'm still pretty skeptical that we'd want to take that deal even if that's a correct read, given that our CMF war is pretty much entirely phoney as of now. That said, CMF is the clear leader in the game right now, and we're just going to fall further behind the longer we get stuck making ships to hold TAD off at Akkad. There may come a time when CMF pulls far enough ahead that we'll need to cut our losses and attack them for real just to retain any chance of winning...not that I think we're all that close to such a time now, of course.

With respect to TAD's plans, one thing we do know is that they're not stockpiling horsemen for the usual mass-upgrade...because I actually got the bonus ES from being first to a horse unit this turn. They're also not building a ton of swords, as illustrated by their having 50 iron to send cryptic messages at us with. They could be making HCs for knights, though.

Speaking of which, my ES math is now blessedly simple:

+1 from floodplains farm
+1 from medieval tech
+2 from Oracle Bones
+2 from Monarchy
+3 from Cuneiform CH
+3 from Linear A Campus

As long as my settler doesn't get cut off on the way to Oracle Bones (and I'm sending two biremes with it to try to make sure that doesn't happen) we should now finally be at the point where nothing can really go wrong here.

[ljubljana]

Turn 89 - Phoenicia



TAD proposes essentially the same deal as last turn, with 2 fewer iron because I have two more iron stockpiled. Notably, they did not tick down whatever counter the gold represents. However, they do have a DoF with CMF, and with nobody else, so I still think the most likely interpretation is that this is a proposal of alliance in some number of turns when that DoF runs out. Here's how I respond:



Admittedly, this was probably a little too flippant of me . I'd be somewhat surprised if CMF came at us in force, though, since it's probably pretty clear that we mean them no actual harm at this point. I threw in the mercury because I don't understand why they keep including my cotton in their proposal - maybe they're short on amenities and so would actually get some value out of this? I don't really expect them to accept, but idk, maybe it's worth a shot.

To be honest, though, I'm getting worried that we might regret not engaging CMF in force with TAD here. Their empire score is really exploding, and at some point somebody's going to have to do something to rein them in. Us and TAD would be good candidates for that somebody - I'm just not sure I'm willing to give up Akkad to make that happen. If you want to try to talk me into doing so, though, I could probably be convinced - what are your thoughts?



My basic idea for how to defend right now is to hold the chokepoints while getting in exactly one hit on their leading galleys, which isn't enough to give them promotions but is enough to blunt their attack while potentially opening up some opportunities to pick off weakened units. Case in point - the galley 1SW - 4W of Akkad can actually be killed next turn by a promoted bireme if they don't retreat it, and we can also move in another unit to prevent us from subsequently being double-attacked. Meanwhile, my biremes will retreat to heal after getting their opening shots in, to be replaced by healthy biremes. We should be able to come out ahead in the battle of attrition this way, since the distance to heal is so much shorter for my units than for TAD's.

For whatever reason, TAD's southern group is spending its time taking potshots at my doomed warrior rather than heading for either Akkad or Mitla. I'll take it - I'm not sure the warrior's good for much at this stage of the game other than a distraction anyways, since I don't really need another sword. It promotes Tortoise after being shot once to waste more of TAD's time.



Domestic screenie. I had to start the campus in Linear A this turn to guarantee that it gets done on time, and you can also see that the capital finished up another settler. I really hate to do this, but the other two cities will probably have to pause their current essential projects for a round of biremes if TAD doesn't make peace . Cuneiform might squeeze in a bireme or two as well, since the CH is set to take only 5 turns as of now.

Note the Indonesian galley annoyingly sailing up my coast, which, if I were suboptimal, would indicate a desire to pillage me some Cothons. They also have another galley approaching from the east as well as an embarked warrior, which could interfere with my settler or try to do the same thing. That would be reeeeally irritating, and as such I would like for one of us to offer suboptimal a DoF on the next turn to gauge their intentions - please stop me if you think that's a bad idea.



aaaand here's this turn's five-alarm fire: my math was wrong! I thought I read that the number of points needed for a GA was always the number needed for a normal age +12, but looks like in at least this case it's actually +14! And, yes, I didn't realize that I could see the exact numbers before the ES display updates by mousing over the ES window until just now, because I am terminally dumb . Anyways, this means I need to make up 2 ES points somewhere, and there aren't really any good options for how to do that. I could get one point from a tundra city without too much trouble. I will not get a point from a second Great Admiral, as TAD built another Dockyard and is going to pass me in a few turns and then bump the cost up to 120. I also will not be first to a medieval tech, as two other civs now have one. It's close, but I think I do not have time to settle two other continents - the second settler's slightly too far away if the era rolls over on t101 as I expect it to, and it'd be really hard to defend both spots anyways.

I could get the 2 extra points by settling Oracle Bones at the desert/NW spot instead of on another continent, and it might be worth asking the lurkers if it's cheese to then gift the city to you. We'd probably like to avoid that if possible, though, so I'm going to go back and look through the sources of +1 era score a few more times to see if I missed anything easier.

EDIT: I might be able to get the last point by settling Oracle Bones near the volcano south of the former Rapa Nui, then using the settler just produced in Cuneiform to settle Jiahu on the tundra island to the north of the capital. That's probably the best solution, though I'm not sure how many good tiles there actually are near that volcano - it looks like the best tile down there that we can see has a barb camp on it, which is less than ideal . I may need to take a semi-shot in the dark here based on what your scouting longship sees in the next couple of turns.

[Woden]

Cotton in trade deal is because Akkad has cotton and it is automatically included.

Could you buy the next Admiral? That would give you a point.

[Woden]

If we time it right, we could have your settler grab the camp south of Rapa Nui. Woudl be a little risky but I coudl kill the spearman, then you embark, grab the camp, and then disembark if there are other units around. I do have a warrior healing in Rapa Nui that could try and clear the area around the camp.

[ljubljana]

I could buy the next admiral, but it's very expensive - 575 gold as of now. Probably better to just move Jiahu into the tundra (which isn't a terrible spot actually, with the cow and a few lumbermills in the first ring) than to blow that much gold on an admiral.

I'm open to trying to clear the camp with the Oracle Bones settler, especially if these superpowered Phoenician embarked settlers can do that and found the city on the same turn. Hopefully it won't come to that, though, given how ridiculously dangerous it might end up being .

Do you think we should be considering accepting one of these peace deals to go rein CMF in, even if it means giving up Akkad? I really don't want to do that, but they're getting very strong and eventually something's going to have to be done about it. I don't want this game to end up like PBEM19 where I just kind of sat back and crossed my fingers that the other players could hold off thrawn without me and then died horribly .

EDIT: It's 4 AM, but I just realized what I actually should have done with TAD's proposal: responded with the same proposal but with Akkad ceded, to indicate willingness to ally against CMF but unwillingness to give up Akkad for it. Ugh, my diplo gets a D- this game at best. Well, I guess that's how you learn these things, by sucking utterly at them for 2 or 3 games .

Also, what are your thoughts on DoFing suboptimal? I'd really hate to end up on the wrong end of a 3v1 here, even if sub only sends opportunistic pillagers over, and I can't see any reason why we'd want to attack them in the next 30t.

[Woden]

I could buy the next admiral, but it's very expensive - 575 gold as of now. Probably better to just move Jiahu into the tundra (which isn't a terrible spot actually, with the cow and a few lumbermills in the first ring) than to blow that much gold on an admiral.

It will get cheaper the more points you get. How many turns before TAD will get the next Admiral/. Might be worth the gold to ensure a Golden Age

Do you think we should be considering accepting one of these peace deals to go rein CMF in, even if it means giving up Akkad? I really don't want to do that, but they're getting very strong and eventually something's going to have to be done about it. I don't want this game to end up like PBEM19 where I just kind of sat back and crossed my fingers that the other players could hold off thrawn without me and then died horribly .

EDIT: It's 4 AM, but I just realized what I actually should have done with TAD's proposal: responded with the same proposal but with Akkad ceded, to indicate willingness to ally against CMF but unwillingness to give up Akkad for it. Ugh, my diplo gets a D- this game at best. Well, I guess that's how you learn these things, by sucking utterly at them for 2 or 3 games .

You should definitely NOT give back Akkad. If they were worried about CMF, why not just end the war. This is just a ploy to get back Akkad. Don't worry about CMF right now, he is not at war, conquering another player but just expanding thanks to his faith income and monumentality. And don't worry about in-game diplomacy, it rarely means what you think it does and it is rarely understood the way you want it to be. It is just shooting in the dark. Big difference between this game and PBEM19 is that Thrawn was activitly conquering people and you realized something should be done about it too late. CMF is still in the active expansion part of his game. As far as I can tell, we are still equal in MP, so no threat yet.

I say, just make sure to keep expanding. Have your new cities build a Cothon and Lighthouse, then build ships. Fill all areas you can fit a coastal city. Phoenicia is not a science or cultural powerhouse but rather can expand fast. Rely on what your civ is good at. I would even suggest having a second city pump out settler too, if you can. Don't fret about science yet. You need to work towards a second golden age, which you are. So keep on that track and we will figure out what to do about CMF later. One thing we can start thinking about is where he might send his settlers next. His starting island is probably filled up now and he is looking to expand off shore. We can slow his expansion down by making it difficult to expand off shore. The island south of Rapa Nui would be a good start. I believe it is just west of his starting island and he may look to go there next. I think getting a city there should be a priority.

As for city trading, I found this:

I agree, that becomes cheesy. I put this working version of the rule: Founded cities cannot be traded, captured cities can be traded once, right after they are ceded or the player they were captured from is eliminated (before that it's not possible to trade them).

I don't think it ever made it to the game summary in the first post of the thread but I beleive this is where we landed on city trading. So, no trading founded cities. If we can forgo the natural wonder city, good. But if you need it to get the Golden Age, we can live with it.