New CIV VI PBEM

[TheArchduke]

CIVs I would ban from this PBEM:

Nubia (too strong)
Gaul
Vietnam
Byzantium
Babylon (too strange)
Khmer (too strong)
Portugal
Australia
China (Yes, they got a needless buff)
Maori (Nightmare to balance)
Maya
Hungary
Ethiopia
Russia (Yes, I think they are too dominant currently)
Colombia
Scythia
Rome (like Russia)
Sumeria

For the full layout and balance discussion we might need to open a thread in General Discussion.

[marcopolothefraud]

For civs I thought we weren't going to use any of the NFP civs and were only going to turn on the Ethiopia and Vietnam DLCs for the districts. So I haven't looked into the NFP civs at all but can do if you want to play them.

From the pre-NFP civs fortunately the madness is limited only to the 3 announced last week, and I find the other changes nice and reasonable. Here is my take on new bans and needed nerfs:

• Incas + preserves and the additional buffs. The Incas can vary between weak and super strong and they place an undue burden on the mapmakers to balance the mountains just because someone may pick them. So I suggest that we ban them in general like the Maori.
  
• Khmer. They really went overboard here. The Khmer only need to pick Cross-Cultural Dialogue which is not a super sought after belief, and they'll have incredible science, culture, and faith yields at the cost of only a holy site and an aqueduct. You get extra culture per population so you don't even need Choral music and can get Feed the world to expand faster. Then when you hit pop 20, which is achievable with these bonuses, that will double the prasat yields taking you to a total of 26 culture per city! The extra population also gives extra science by existing, production by working tiles (and with that much culture your borders will be expanding like crazy so you will have many tiles) and in the worst case you can use them as district specialists for very reasonable yields. Even the Russian monumentality snowball looks meager in comparison. The only redeeming feature is that the Khmer need a bit of time to get going but unless someone attacks them they can easily do triple monumentality and grow out of proportion. I'd say ban until we have a way to balance them.- Spain. The second one they've gone overboard with but it should be easier to fix. They should definitely lose the free builders, a builder is a big thing and not something you throw around as pocket change. (I'd say that even the AH is OP compared to the other two options and should be brought down or the others should be beefed up.) The extra trade route yields are a nice starting bonus that goes down with time so that's ok, but the tripling becomes too much. 9 gold, 6 faith, and 3 production in the early game for just finding another continent?! I think it can work in principle but needs to be enabled by a later tech, and Spain will still be very strong with early fleets, extra bonuses from trade routes, and the +5 combat strength from religion.
  
• Mapuche. I'm not sure about this one. The +10 which is the defining civ strength is nice and works well. The ability to loyalty flip border cities by using governors is more questionable but it could work on its own. The two together however create a problem. Amani+emissary is an easy way to get 6 point pressure and put a border city into negative loyalty. Nothing prevents the Mapuche from getting a golden age, so they'll be exerting GA-level pressure. The neighbour can either get a golden age too to keep the border cities at positive loyalty and be exposed to the +10 Mapuche strength, or can avoid the golden age which makes it easy for the Mapuche to get the cities into negative loyalty and flip them by killing a few defenders. It's ok if a civ strength is unpleasant to defend against like having to sacrifice your GA to prevent the +10, but here defending against one super power exposes you to the other and I don't think it's reasonable. As a separate point, the base governor bonuses are ok, but the tripled ones seem too much. 15% is what Korea gets for 5 titles, and 30% combat experience is a lot.
  
• Nubia and Russia. Welcome nerfs but I think Nubia needs a little more and Russia should lose the GWAMs completely (maybe get one great writer upon the completion of the first shrine instead). The reason is not in Russia itself but that the presence of Russia ruins theater squares for the others, and TSs are not a great investment to begin with.
  

Everything else looks good, which is not to say balanced, but the civs are playable and in a better state than before. And there are some really nice touches like Gorgo and the Ottomans.

I believe Maori are only banned because they start in ocean, and create spawning issues for the map. But because we get starting screenshots before we pick, we can still pick Maori, right? They will just spawn on land?

I don't believe Khmer should be banned. 1: the Khmer "need a bit of time to get going but unless someone attacks them they can easily do triple monumentality and grow out of proportion." That's a key point - they don't have any Ancient or Classical Era bonuses, and they're the most important bonuses of the game. 2: the food formula is the same as Civ 5, I think. Growing to pop 20 is very difficult because the food required is exponential. I will probably do a test game whenever I have the time to do so.

Agree that Nubia and Russia still need to be nerfed.

[marcopolothefraud]

CIVs I would ban from this PBEM:

Nubia (too strong)
Gaul
Vietnam
Byzantium
Babylon (too strange)
Khmer (too strong)
Portugal
Australia
China (Yes, they got a needless buff)
Maori (Nightmare to balance)
Maya
Hungary
Ethiopia
Russia (Yes, I think they are too dominant currently)
Colombia
Scythia
Rome (like Russia)
Sumeria

For the full layout and balance discussion we might need to open a thread in General Discussion.

Byzantium has 2 very powerful (and fast) unique units, but they are vulnerable in the early game, and I think the Hippodrome unique district is gimmicky. They are strong but also inflexible and they don't need to be banned. (Maybe for something like PBEM20, where a Dromon would be a Classical-Era frigate, but we don't know how much water there will be on the PBEM21 map.)

Khmer is strong but I don't think it warrants a ban. I agree with the rest of the list, though.

If we enabled New Frontier Pass, should Bull Moose Teddy Roosevelt be banned? I'm leaning towards no. He (situationally) gets +2 science and +2 culture on Breathtaking Appeal tiles, but that basically means he can't put Mines or Quarries down.

[suboptimal]

I believe Maori are only banned because they start in ocean, and create spawning issues for the map. But because we get starting screenshots before we pick, we can still pick Maori, right? They will just spawn on land?

I think the larger balance issue here is that they can embark land units on Turn 1.

Other than being an NFP civ (which I think we previously agreed to ban all of them) I don't see Maya as being as ridiculous as the rest of the NFP civs.

I agree with TAD that the full balance discussion should go into the general thread. If things proceed further than they have in the past then perhaps we get a subforum for discussions & maintenance.

[Alhambram]

I assumed that we played with every civ inculding NPF civs to see which are too OP and which not and adjust that for future mods.
I don't mind playing with banlist that Archduke proposed, also I don't mind either free choice or draft pick, bot are fine for me.

[marcopolothefraud]

I prefer free pick as well. IIRC we're still banning every winner from past PBEMs, so we already don't have much flexibility in choosing our civs.

[suboptimal]

Free pick is fine by me, as is draft (NOT HELPING! yes, I know). I assume we're fine with having duplicate civs/leaders in the game if we do a free pick?

[Bruindane]

Can a lurker update us on the map? Is it close to finished or does it need more work?

Your thread title is prescient, the map is still under development.

[TheArchduke]

Free Pick then.

I put up quite the comprehensive ban list.

I do not think Russia is that bannable, but I would love to play without them for once. They are too strong not to take.

[Alhambram]

Free Pick then.

I put up quite the comprehensive ban list.

I do not think Russia is that bannable, but I would love to play without them for once. They are too strong not to take.

Your banlist is fine, let's use it. Duplicates are okay, altough I like varierty more.