[SPOILERS] Woden and ljubljana like boats

[Woden]

I can pop the cards in next turn and start building swords and chariots. Military Training is 4 turns and Stirrups is 3 turns. I can research both down to 1 turn while getting a few swords and chariots out and do a round of berserkers afterwards. Should have enough to start sailing by the time the DoF with them completes (~T125-127).

[ljubljana]

Nothing upgrades to zerks, right? Even with the cards in place, I imagine building them from scratch will take some time... I'm also afraid roland will upgrade one knight somewhere and then totally shut down a knight-based attack, at least on the inland cities. But if you think it can work, it sounds fun to me . In that case, I guess you should offer the DoF to TAD on your turn and I'll offer Writing on the Wall on mine? Or should we wait a few turns to get more time to conquer China before TAD can attack us? We should also have a plan for what to do if TAD takes the city but ignores the DoF...I imagine eternal war is the answer, but that would obviously be throwing the game away for us so idk.

[Woden]

They are now a man-o-arms replacement and on the melee tree. So swords upgrade to them and they are boost by Feudal Contracts.

[ljubljana]

If swords upgrade to them that changes things! That's probably a VERY cheap upgrade too, right? I can funnel you all my iron and you can build a ton of swords - with 58 CS when attacking and 4 movement strength, I'm not sure there's any reason to build knights, right?

When do you think we should try to buy off TAD? I guess we can afford to wait a few turns, which would buy us more time to fight China. If you build swords in the meantime, they stay at least a little useful if we have to fight TAD, since you can use them to recapture cities we might lose to them. Not sure if that increases the odds of them taking the city but either ignoring the DoF or attacking anyways though... There isn't anything we can offer them in the trade screen that locks them into peace pre-alliances, right? If we're waiting a few turns, I guess I can send 5g for 5g or whatever to indicate the general direction we're planning to go.

[Woden]

If swords upgrade to them that changes things! That's probably a VERY cheap upgrade too, right? I can funnel you all my iron and you can build a ton of swords - with 58 CS when attacking and 4 movement strength, I'm not sure there's any reason to build knights, right?

I think they are 150 without professional army, 75 with it. And swords already cost iron, so no additional iron to upgrade.

When do you think we should try to buy off TAD? I guess we can afford to wait a few turns, which would buy us more time to fight China. If you build swords in the meantime, they stay at least a little useful if we have to fight TAD, since you can use them to recapture cities we might lose to them. Not sure if that increases the odds of them taking the city but either ignoring the DoF or attacking anyways though... There isn't anything we can offer them in the trade screen that locks them into peace pre-alliances, right? If we're waiting a few turns, I guess I can send 5g for 5g or whatever to indicate the general direction we're planning to go.

Probably do it soon so we know which way to go. If we don't have to worry about TAD, tehn I can have my western cities build swords. If I do have to worry about TAD, then I need to build walls.

[ljubljana]

Okay, I'm ready whenever you are, then, if you think this is the best play (thrawn has to promise not to make fun of me though ). What should we do if TAD takes the city but ignores the DoF, just pretend everything's fine and keep building up to attack China or prepare for eternal TAD war?

[Woden]

Okay, I'm ready whenever you are, then, if you think this is the best play (thrawn has to promise not to make fun of me though ). What should we do if TAD takes the city but ignores the DoF, just pretend everything's fine and keep building up to attack China or prepare for eternal TAD war?

I think TAD is a pretty straight forward player, so doubt he would try something like that but if he does, we just roll with it. As for me, I think I move forwards with a landing party. Maybe I can sneak over to England an cause some ruckus as he fights you in the ocean. Another option I though might help fight TAD would be an emergency. I don't like when people call special sessions of the world congress but we might be able to call one when your DoF ends with him if he does attack. We could get a +3 CS bonus (or him a -3CS). Also, I should know where theology is located before war breaks out. If it is close, we could get war of religion going. Unless they fixed it in the most recent patch, it works even if the other player is not following a religion. Hopefully I can get both of us converted by the time war breaks out. 

War of Religion (+4), an emergency (+3), and oligarchy legacy (+4) should make my berserkers have an attack of 70 CS. Should be able to chew through his cities fairly well if I can get them there. Same goes for China but I don't think they have conquered any city states for the emergency.

[Woden]

I forgot to mention earlier, the knight build will be for the boost to Military Science.

[ljubljana]

That all sounds good to me. I don't know how we could get zerks over to England, unfortunately, as it'll probably be all I can do to keep from losing cities in a war with them, let alone maintaining control of the seas. Against China I agree that they will be terrifying to face down, though, especially since China would have to build an army pretty much from scratch in order to do so.

In the harsh light of the morning, do you still think the best plan is to give up Writing on the Wall for a DoF? If so, I guess the thing to do is for you to re-offer DoFs this turn and me to offer the city plus 1 diplo for 1 diplo and 30 gold for 30 gold to make it crystal clear that we expect a DoF in return for giving up the city. Does that sound right to you? I'm still a little worried that 20t of a DoF will not be enough time for us to conquer China and get ready for TAD stabbing us, but I agree that we need to know whether our western cities have to build walls instead of quads/swords.

[Woden]

That all sounds good to me. I don't know how we could get zerks over to England, unfortunately, as it'll probably be all I can do to keep from losing cities in a war with them, let alone maintaining control of the seas. Against China I agree that they will be terrifying to face down, though, especially since China would have to build an army pretty much from scratch in order to do so.

In the harsh light of the morning, do you still think the best plan is to give up Writing on the Wall for a DoF? If so, I guess the thing to do is for you to re-offer DoFs this turn and me to offer the city plus 1 diplo for 1 diplo and 30 gold for 30 gold to make it crystal clear that we expect a DoF in return for giving up the city. Does that sound right to you? I'm still a little worried that 20t of a DoF will not be enough time for us to conquer China and get ready for TAD stabbing us, but I agree that we need to know whether our western cities have to build walls instead of quads/swords.

This sounds good. As for only 20 turns, TAD won't be waiting around for 20 turns to attack us. He will move to another target and may be busy with them by the time the the DoF ends.  Also, your ships can make pretty quick work of China's coastal cities. If it drags on, it will be the land war that does, so you will be free to engage England in 20 turns.

Edit: Also, I have a feeling that suboptimal will fall pretty quick once CMF gets Square Rigging and Cartography, simply for the number of coastal cities.