[PB61 - Spoiler] Jackrb's Football's coming home

[JackRB]

We have to win the post war after all

I'm somewhat withholding more analysis until I see the start, but thought I'd make some quick comments. I had honestly forgotten Khmer's UU but Elephants are really good, too used to SP where you never get ivory ever (I also noticed you can build Elephants with Iron now, nice). Ballista's are just as slow as praets etc tho, they just too good for that to matter?

IMP/ORG Sumeria was my initial thought cuz 45 hammer courthouses sounds good.

[superdeath]

Yeah, Ballistas are OPElephants (that are still AHmazing.. nothing "really" counters them)

IMP/ORG Sumeria isnt a bad idea. I wouldnt worry about using the Vultures much on a map this size, but they are a cheap Almost-counter to elephants/HA's if we are attacked with those.

[civac2]

Not sure this got through the first time. All elephants including Khmer Ballistaphants are at 7 strength.

[superdeath]

Not sure this got through the first time. All elephants including Khmer Ballistaphants are at 7 strength.

Correct.

Ballistaphants with their "always target mounted outside of cities" plus elephants still being OP.. = yumm

[Tarkeel]

Not sure this got through the first time. All elephants including Khmer Ballistaphants are at 7 strength.

Correct.

Ballistaphants with their "always target mounted outside of cities" plus elephants still being OP.. = yumm

That ability is a two-edged sword, making them kill the sentry-charriot instead of the wounded (say) praetorian. At size 7 instead of 8, they no longer massacre knights either. They're still good, just not the stuff of nightmares. They were at full strength in 58, and they made us confident to delay pikes and knights of our own to focus on other techs.

[superdeath]

Not sure this got through the first time. All elephants including Khmer Ballistaphants are at 7 strength.

Correct.

Ballistaphants with their "always target mounted outside of cities" plus elephants still being OP.. = yumm

That ability is a two-edged sword, making them kill the sentry-charriot instead of the wounded (say) praetorian. At size 7 instead of 8, they no longer massacre knights either. They're still good, just not the stuff of nightmares. They were at full strength in 58, and they made us confident to delay pikes and knights of our own to focus on other techs.

Yeah, they definitely needed that nerf. Being strength 8 and good against basically everything except pikes till rifles... is a bit much.

[Tarkeel]

JackRB, here is your starting location. Beware of the danger of gazing into the fog, anything outside of the BFC of where you settler is can possibly change before the map is finalized.

[superdeath]

An interesting start. Having fishing as one of our starting techs is probably ideal. (you can build workboats without fishing in this mod, but lake clam/coastal fish are our best food sources)

Carthage, going BW-Wheel-Pottery or BW- Agriculture-wheel-pottery would be my play here.

Could also do any mining + X civ (ethiopia/ect) and just tech fishing while the workboat builds, then go to BW.

Or.. could ignore the fish/clam and go standard agriculture/worker and just build the workboats later, but i dont recommend that.

[JackRB]

Yay start analysis time.

Ignoring the seafood is a non-starter here. Starting with fishing is also fairly? essential assuming SIP, since I'd like to take advantage of the 3h plains hill forest (6turn work boat). The alternative is research fishing first (8turns) and build on the forest ivory (8turn work boat), but i'm not sure I like that all that much.

Civs with fishing list: America, Carthage, Dutch, England, Greece, Japan, Native America, Portugal, Rome, Spain, Vikings

In terms of second tech, mining or agri is the only real secondary pick to me, which narrows the picks down to
Carthage/England/Portugal/Rome (fishing/mining)
America/Dutch (fishing/agriculture)

America/Dutch/Portugal is an immediate no, so I see it as a choice of Carthage, England or Rome.

England I think is the worst of those 3 (I like the UU and UB, but this is not SP)
Rome would be good for praets obv.
Are Numids that great? Hmm... They're very very janky to use in SP, but I could forsee a good stack running over ancient age units (the 50% bonus against melee helps them against spears... kinda?).

Do I even need to consider Rome UB vs Carthage UB?

I'll have a think and try and make a decision on civ tonight

[Tarkeel]

One of the larger changes in CtH is the ability to build workboats without fishing.

Also note that America has different UU/UB and is less stupid to take.