[PB61 spoilers] vanrober lonely in a green field

[vanrober]

Mmmm on pb54 i was amazed for the amount of gold i got when migelito found us, we got 3gold traderoutes in all cities.
Noble told me that the path had to be unfoged by any of the players. I didnt get to see any of his coastal cities but still got the TR. I thought that would happen this time. But it didnt.
So really im not sure whats going on.

[RefSteel]

Mmmm on pb54 i was amazed for the amount of gold i got when migelito found us, we got 3gold traderoutes in all cities.
Noble told me that the path had to be unfoged by any of the players. I didnt get to see any of his coastal cities but still got the TR. I thought that would happen this time. But it didnt.
So really im not sure whats going on.

Ah - not quite:

You need to have a route defogged OR inside opponent borders to a given city to get trade routes to it.  So you need to defog all the neutral tiles and then any tiles owned by opponents can be fogged.

And as he later explained further:

Miguelito asked for OB and i acepted. And im not sure if its a bug but that was the best decision i made on the game. I have Trade Route with all of his cities and they are on other continent so its 3 gold for every city (omg ElGrillo, he is the gold himself). And i have no idea where are their cities. Noble told me that should not happen so idk.

I said that there has to be a trade route of either neutral defogged tiles or owned fogged (or defogged) tiles between your city and the target city.  You do not have to defog tiles that are owned by opponents.

So he's saying that you have to defog all the neutral tiles on the way to the other player's culture; the part of the route that you don't have to defog is the part actually inside his cultural borders.  You still need to do the neutral-tile defogging for yourself.  (In fact, I think [EDIT: and Noble in fact is confirming in his second post there] that it works as long as all the still-fogged tiles are in anybody's culture [EDIT: including other opponents, which means you can sometimes get trade routes without doing any new exploring just because other players' culture expanded to cover coast tiles that used to be neutral.])

[vanrober]

Mmmm on pb54 i was amazed for the amount of gold i got when migelito found us, we got 3gold traderoutes in all cities.
Noble told me that the path had to be unfoged by any of the players. I didnt get to see any of his coastal cities but still got the TR. I thought that would happen this time. But it didnt.
So really im not sure whats going on.

Ah - not quite:

You need to have a route defogged OR inside opponent borders to a given city to get trade routes to it.  So you need to defog all the neutral tiles and then any tiles owned by opponents can be fogged.

And as he later explained further:

Miguelito asked for OB and i acepted. And im not sure if its a bug but that was the best decision i made on the game. I have Trade Route with all of his cities and they are on other continent so its 3 gold for every city (omg ElGrillo, he is the gold himself). And i have no idea where are their cities. Noble told me that should not happen so idk.

I said that there has to be a trade route of either neutral defogged tiles or owned fogged (or defogged) tiles between your city and the target city.  You do not have to defog tiles that are owned by opponents.

So he's saying that you have to defog all the neutral tiles on the way to the other player's culture; the part of the route that you don't have to defog is the part actually inside his cultural borders.  You still need to do the neutral-tile defogging for yourself.  (In fact, I think [EDIT: and Noble in fact is confirming in his second post there] that it works as long as all the still-fogged tiles are in anybody's culture [EDIT: including other opponents, which means you can sometimes get trade routes without doing any new exploring just because other players' culture expanded to cover coast tiles that used to be neutral.])

Thanks Ref. This lenguage gap made me understand it wrong. I see now what i have to do. I really apreciate your help! It has been so usefull!

[vanrober]

Turn 80

I ve been overextimating my gold, this turn settled 2 cities, one of which cost me 2 gpt the otherone is 0gpt win or loss. Now at 100% i lose 37gpt when i get 16 on 0%. Right now i need some TR and some courthouses i would say. maybe with a few cottages is good enough too. I keep whiping while the rest is just growing tall.

           

Demos are much better now, as you saw Jassmine is not working food yet, but it will next turn. i ve choped one forest adn will chop some more after that to complete the granary. Just Orchid is really slow as city, but the sooner i get it rolling the better. Its really close to the holly city so i hope it get a free spread there. The shrine is going to be really nice to the economy too.

   

So i decided to skip HBR, its really expensive right now and i believe that having axe+cats will be enought to make any atack work, pure civforum stile!. Also maths is going to be nice to make better chops.

[civac2]

You should probably get a granary in Orchid first.

[vanrober]

I really apreciate this comment civac. I first thoguth that too, but doing maths i did them wrong, i thought i had to get to 100food to make to 4 pop, and thats 5 pop. So my math was completely wrong.

So when i tried to write down my thoughts i saw they were wrong!

If i did now right maths, if i do granary first it would take 12 turns to get there (if the second WB make it on time, i would need to whip it and im unsure if its worth...). And working grass tiles unless i put something in those.

It would look like this:

   

If i do lighthouse first it would take 14 turns. Good part of this version is saving worker turns so i dont need to cottage those tiles (i want them as farms or hammer tiles)

   

Do you truly believe that those 2 difference are worth? Also its 2 turns before with jsut 1 building so i would need to whip again getting into 1 pop or wait for 3 porp to 1 whip into 2 pop. Am i missing something?

[civac2]

My short calculation says that the granary first variant (grow to 4 -> whip granary -> grow to 3 -> whiplighthouse) and lighthouse at 3 variant (grow to 3 whip lighthouse -> grow to 4 whip granary) are equal comes out ahead by 7 food over lighthouse at 2. I suppose you could go for the lighthouse at 2; 7 food is less than one turn for this city and you can delay the second workboat. I would have tried to plan this out ahead so that the second workboat was on time. (Btw, granary first shoud whip the granary 3 turns before lighthouse at 2. Did you work coast over the grasland?)

I don't understand the worker labor issue. You can use just the bare grasland but I would cottage those tiles. Not that farms/ws would be bad here but you won't be able to farm them until Civil Service or workshop them until Chemistry.

[vanrober]

My plan of ws with caste plus guilds.

I wasnt changing productions. Maybe i have to check that.

Thabks for the help civac!

[vanrober]

My short calculation says that the granary first variant (grow to 4 -> whip granary -> grow to 3 -> whiplighthouse) and lighthouse at 3 variant (grow to 3 whip lighthouse -> grow to 4 whip granary) are equal comes out ahead by 7 food over lighthouse at 2. I suppose you could go for the lighthouse at 2; 7 food is less than one turn for this city and you can delay the second workboat. I would have tried to plan this out ahead so that the second workboat was on time. (Btw, granary first shoud whip the granary 3 turns before lighthouse at 2. Did you work coast over the grasland?)

I don't understand the worker labor issue. You can use just the bare grasland but I would cottage those tiles. Not that farms/ws would be bad here but you won't be able to farm them until Civil Service or workshop them until Chemistry.

So im building a WB now, its 3 turns done in my second city, it needs 4 turns to get into the spot, so i would need to whip it next turn to save a turn. Its still possible. Otherwise i lose a turn of 3f which i guess is still not terrible. Knowing this what would you do?

[civac2]

You can do the lighthouse whip on 2 thing. Since this city has so much food losing 7 food is not that important and the pop1 whip for the workboat is a cost too. I can't estimate how harmful the wb whip would be.