Thoughts on aggression and resources

[MrBiscuits]

Corruption is already a counter for resources though. 
Also there is a death curse to prevent you from using adamantium or mithril.
For food resources there is drought and pestilence.
For production bonuses there are curses that increase unrest and also ways of destroying production buildings.

I don't understand how chaos monopolise resources now anyway, as another chaos wizard can destroy their resources much easier than they can create them (1 volcano to destroy versus several on average to create a resource, which might not even be the one you want anyway).

Regarding transmute, does it need a counter? It's a spell that allows nature to take advantage of the terrain to make adamantium units. Sounds like something nature should do.
For games without chaos wizards then it doesn't have a counter in that situation anyway.

[Slingers]

Would anyone miss it if destruction of resources was taken out of the game completely?

Aha. The Chaos wizards ;p

[MrBiscuits]

Would anyone miss it if destruction of resources was taken out of the game completely?

Aha. The Chaos wizards ;p

Well actually I'm currently playing a chaos/nature game with transmute and volcano and even I'm finding it annoying.

It takes many volcanoes to create a resource that can be changed to adamantium and then several transmutes as well....and it can be destroyed immediately by just one volcano by one of the other chaos wizards.

[Slingers]

Well actually I'm currently playing a chaos/nature game with transmute and volcano and even I'm finding it annoying.

It takes many volcanoes to create a resource that can be changed to adamantium and then several transmutes as well....and it can be destroyed immediately by just one volcano by one of the other chaos wizards.

Thank you for your good example MrBiscuits. You see, the other Chaos wizard really enjoyed thwarting your costly plans. Your investment would also be worth much less and less exclusive if it were indestructible to everyone. There would simply be more of these units in the game in general. However, with so many opponents there are far too many volcano slingers and no antidote at all. It wouldn't do you any good if "Philosophers Stone" would be able to protect your city's special resource, right? So I think that if not to Nature, a remedy could be added to Chaos.

[Seravy]

A new idea.

What if Change Terrain had a chance to create a new mineral specifically only when targeting a Volcano tile? It's reasonable to expect a cooled down volcano to reveal some minerals.

This makes the Nature/Chaos mineral combo better which is good because it's currently more of a fun strategy than a good one.
It doesn't protect your resource so not a problem to be in Nature, but does allow you to fight back in a meaningful way (you might get a better resource than the one you lost and you also have a +7% production mountain on top of that which is actually a better tile than a Forest, Swamp, Desert or Hill though not as good as Grasslands - but Grasslands tiles almost never have a mineral on them anyway).
This could also justify changing the AI to not cast Raise Volcano on minor resources and mediocre tiles if the targeted player has Change Terrain since they lose more than gain by doing so. So it could still destroy mithril, adamantium, gems, and maybe crysx crystals, but it won't target gold, silver, coal, iron or quork.

I still prefer restricting the AI based on distance and war status first, but it's an idea we can consider if that's not enough. We can also extend this effect to Gaea's Blessing or possibly even the natural reverting of volcanoes.

[Slingers]

A new idea.

What if Change Terrain had a chance to create a new mineral specifically only when targeting a Volcano tile? It's reasonable to expect a cooled down volcano to reveal some minerals.

Sounds like a good idea! This could replace the creation of minerals on volcanoes. Volcanoes no longer have to erupt twice on the same tile just to destroy a resource.

But after this change, it would still be difficult to find a way to protect a mineral if that's what is wanted.

[Dragonfabri]

A new idea.

What if Change Terrain had a chance to create a new mineral specifically only when targeting a Volcano tile? It's reasonable to expect a cooled down volcano to reveal some minerals.

This makes the Nature/Chaos mineral combo better which is good because it's currently more of a fun strategy than a good one.
It doesn't protect your resource so not a problem to be in Nature, but does allow you to fight back in a meaningful way (you might get a better resource than the one you lost and you also have a +7% production mountain on top of that which is actually a better tile than a Forest, Swamp, Desert or Hill though not as good as Grasslands - but Grasslands tiles almost never have a mineral on them anyway).
This could also justify changing the AI to not cast Raise Volcano on minor resources and mediocre tiles if the targeted player has Change Terrain since they lose more than gain by doing so. So it could still destroy mithril, adamantium, gems, and maybe crysx crystals, but it won't target gold, silver, coal, iron or quork.

I still prefer restricting the AI based on distance and war status first, but it's an idea we can consider if that's not enough. We can also extend this effect to Gaea's Blessing or possibly even the natural reverting of volcanoes.

While indeed thematic (nature finds a way under the ashes, it happens irl too!) and great to add new tools to an otherwise subpar combination, it doesn"t solve the issue of not being able to protect a vital resource, even if the player is willing to invest into it for longer term planning or territory consolidation (adamantium for troop centers, gold for coastals and combo with gold coastal buildings etc).

In my opinion the real solution to the problem is not making the AI less prone to destroy minerals, but giving the player the tools to defend his tiles if he's willing to invest the time and resources. Which spell cpuld gice this added effect is a worthy discussion; Philosopher stone is a mishmash of effects, so it could have this one added. Otherwise Heavenly Light? But then it'd do too many things at once.

[Seravy]

if he's willing to invest the time and resources.

And that really is a large part of the problem.
The game was designed around the assumption that it's not trivial to protect these resources (diplomacy, denial of scouting) so they can be powerful. Not all of them are, but Adamantium definitely, Mithril and Orihalcon somewhat is.

What's the fair casting cost equivalent to not having to be careful around Chaos wizards and/or an equivalent city enchantment that grants +2/+2 to the unit stats like adamantium?
Probably several hundreds at rare, like Altar of Battle. Even if I halve the cost considering how situational it is, it's still 150 and late uncommon.

So let's say I do add such a perfect counter and make it have a fair cost. It won't be worth using on anything worse than Mithril and it will come too late to actually protect anything as you can't afford it earlier.

If I make the cost lower, I might as well not add the spell effect and just say the ores are indestructible (volcanoes don't destroy them) since it's a waste of a spell slot and unnecessary complexity if the cost is low. At which point we likely need to nerf ores since they are now twice as good as they used to be (instead of in half the games played, they survive and are useful in all of them.) and then we end up with ores no one cares about - it's literally a "back to square one" result as you had very weak ores in the original game (excluding mithril and adamantium, but original silver, crystals, iron, coal and gold were like...half the current amount) but they were indestructible (Raise volcano couldn't target hills and mountains but you almost never had ores anywhere else.)

Maybe it would be better if we simply added modding options for which tiles are invalid for Raise Volcano, like, disable using it on volcanoes, hills, or mountains for those who aren't happy with the AI update solution planned.

[Seravy]

Oh I completely forgot. I know it's counter intuitive but a perfect counter to Raise Volcano exists at Chaos Common. I don't often bother because I don't value resources as high as most players so it's hard to remember it's there. It's a spell people rarely use so it gives it extra value, which it needs, too.

...it's Corruption. You can corrupt your minerals when they are expected to be at risk, defeat or make peace with the Chaos wizard causing the problem, then send a Shaman to clean it up. The AI will never raise a Volcano on an already Corrupted tile.
What makes this an extra good solution :
-The price is fair. Your mineral doesn't produce anything while it's invincible so it can't be abused.
-It doesn't disrupt human gameplay. The AI will never corrupt their own resource and even if they did, it can't prevent you from raising a Volcano on it anyway. So it specifically only works against the AI which is what we want for this case (as human players don't use Volcano often enough for mineral destruction anyway, there is no need for the AI to be able to counter that.)

So I don't think we need another spell to counter Raise Volcano at all. We already have one. I unfortunately forgot about that.

[Dragonfabri]

if he's willing to invest the time and resources.

And that really is a large part of the problem.
The game was designed around the assumption that it's not trivial to protect these resources (diplomacy, denial of scouting) so they can be powerful. Not all of them are, but Adamantium definitely, Mithril and Orihalcon somewhat is.

What's the fair casting cost equivalent to not having to be careful around Chaos wizards and/or an equivalent city enchantment that grants +2/+2 to the unit stats like adamantium?
Probably several hundreds at rare, like Altar of Battle. Even if I halve the cost considering how situational it is, it's still 150 and late uncommon.

So let's say I do add such a perfect counter and make it have a fair cost. It won't be worth using on anything worse than Mithril and it will come too late to actually protect anything as you can't afford it earlier.

If I make the cost lower, I might as well not add the spell effect and just say the ores are indestructible (volcanoes don't destroy them) since it's a waste of a spell slot and unnecessary complexity if the cost is low. At which point we likely need to nerf ores since they are now twice as good as they used to be (instead of in half the games played, they survive and are useful in all of them.) and then we end up with ores no one cares about - it's literally a "back to square one" result as you had very weak ores in the original game (excluding mithril and adamantium, but original silver, crystals, iron, coal and gold were like...half the current amount) but they were indestructible (Raise volcano couldn't target hills and mountains but you almost never had ores anywhere else.)

Maybe it would be better if we simply added modding options for which tiles are invalid for Raise Volcano, like, disable using it on volcanoes, hills, or mountains for those who aren't happy with the AI update solution planned.

You raise a very good point, but i also think that the focus should be on meaningful choices and investments rather than reducing the chances to encounter said problem. That's part of strategic thinking: do i invest in something in situational to largely profit from key resources or am i better off accepting the loss and keep working on other spells? Can i grow peacefully with my neighbour Chaos Wizard or should i not invest into that Adamantium City?
That's one of many meaningful choices in this great mod, and i think it's good to be faced with such problems and challenges.

The problem and the frustration comes when the player has no choice, counter or possibility to answer these challenges.

For example, Earthquake breaks building-heavy strategies; but there's an elegant "perfect" counter to that at Rare, which does a main military thing (not-flying units can't invade), but also provides a very useful economic benefit (protecting your building investment). Flying Fortress comes late, but so should Earthquake, so one can plan ahead if he wants to, say, spam high men cities and take the proper spellbooks if, for that player, having buildings go down and spend many turns rebuilding is unacceptable for their longterm plans (maybe they need all the troops they can, or the research fir that very Rare spell).
In short, this is a good choice players can face, and the cost of the counter is appropriate both for adressing the issue and doing a little more.

Now about Rise Volcano: the time comes when the AI ravages your lands with volcanoes. That's actually a great way for the AI to be a treath without necessarly just attacking you: it tries to undermine your economy, and the player is now under pressure.
Here's the real problem: the player here has no choice, he can just accept the loss and move on, with no way to prevent it or any way to ensure it doesn't happen again. Wizard Pacts aren't always doable, and good terms will inevitably deteriorate in the late stages, and at that point resources simply can't be relied on.

And at this point one should ask, what's their point then? To have +10 gold for, what, 50 turns? Resources should be reasons to place cities, enablers of specialization and pleasant surprises from exploration. If i know that +10 gold will be gone in 50 turns, i read it as "500 gold, wow". Not a horrible sum mind you, but definetly less exciting than the possibility of protecting that asset, maybe improve on it with building, hell even transmute it for great power conversion. These are all great possible choices for the player, but they all require investment, planning and protection to not see 50 turns of efforts go in smoke in 2 casting of volcanoes. The problem is tgat there's no such choice of "protection", since it doesn't exist.

Adding a modding option is not the correct way to adress the problem in my opinion. Having choices (even in mod form) is great, but the strategic potential of resources is too great to just leave it to the whim of the AI's mercy, or to "cheat" and simply not allow the AI to cast it in too many situations.

In conclusion, the best way in my opinion would be to offer this "protection" choice to the player. The challenge, as you rightfully said, is finding the right cost of such choice, which should be appropriate for the treath faced.

POSSIBLE SOLUTION FOR THOSE WHO DON'T READ WALLS OF TEXT

Maybe the single-tile-melding protection is not a horrible idea: Maybe the Guardian Spirit could be the ideal candidate: we could take away the Religious Power generation and node melding. His new effect would be "melds with any tile. Units on that tile get bonuses, and that tile can't be corrupted or volcanoed".
This makes the effect not too complicated, it's VERY thematic for life (a real guardian spirit protects the land from corruption and chaos!), and most of all, it opens huge strateguc possibilities on the map, since each tile can be "reinforced" with such a melding. The possibilities are many, and the AI could use it to great effect too.