[PB62 Mjmd] Let the Bullgine Run!

[Mjmd]

Commodore gave me a good capital. Pindicator ded-lurking me. Universe is weird man, but some things don't change!

In all seriousness I'm not locked on my pick, thoughts to come.

[Mjmd]

Trait analysis. (goes and gets a whiskey at 4am after hiking previous day and falling asleep at 9pm; only quality to follow). Note doing this pre asking about tiles / player for some general thoughts.

This will not be a city name, but I've realized I like putting music in my thread.


Lets start with the elephant in the forest:
Imperialistic - Helps with key growth turns early. Instead of having to chop to save growth turns, you save forests / early worker time for other projects. Can also double chop out settlers, which I love going two worker into settler. Its really good at making sure you don't fall behind early; IE you are pretty sure to be relevant. HOWEVER, it does jack to support said expansion and falls off FAST. I'm pretty sure it shouldn't be picked on emperor or at least HAS to be paired with organized or financial.
Expansive - obviously the next up for saving early growth turns. However, it does so later, which under current CtH has always been its issue. These are super important turns and getting graneries up timely has been an issue with me in the past (something about picking a myst civ, something something, hm what was I saying?). In all seriousness liked Bellarch playing Inca and cheap grans. I kind of like Inca if picking two slower traits, but I digress. I really want the 1 discount to rd building and along with circumnavigation shift to harbors changes floated in CtH dev thread. Give me a map 130+ tiles per player and I'll play expansive next game (prob maybe).
Creative - just going down other early game traits - I've LOVED it in PB59. It would have been great in PB61. It would have been almost worthless PB56, but may be good on a Commodore map. I was honestly highly thinking of taking; specifically was* planning on taking Zara, because I think Zara has been chronically unpicked in CtH.
Aggressive - yes I have as an expansion trait. I think if we played on 75-90 tiles per player maps, Agg would suddenly get REALLY popular. You kind of need to be pushing people around with agg axes, which obviously is a smaller map thing. CtH buffs make it more palpable on say a 100/player map, and I would 100% play agg Rome again on up to a 110/player map.

Charismatic - Swiss army knife of doing random things that always make it pretty good but not high in my normal snake pick. That being said Amica picked for PB55 that I was ded lurking and was pretty good. Like its half expansion and half military. Its good with a high food capital because you can overwhip early. This capital is well above a normal Commodore capital, but I'm not sure its quite to a pick charismatic over Imp start. That being said, it is a better trait long term with additional happy which really shines after granaries and pre calendar. For some odd spoilery reason I'm very aware of how brutal great generals combined with charismatic can be. I also want to say its probably better on a Commodore map. May have finally given me a good capital, but I would bet a shiny penny there aren't more than 4 happy resources (some of which are calendar) anywhere around. Pin could easily persuade me to take over Imp.

Financial - now the econ traits - Still best late game economic trait. Extra commerce basically means that all the modifier buildings are extra good. This is what sets it apart from other traits. This is a good financial academy capital. That being said they key downside to financial is you have to work at making it good. You have to work a lot of tiles and build the modifier buildings. IE if your whipping armies for early warfare....... not as good. It also doesn't help you get to early techs to win wonder races. This is an overly all strong field which actually makes me like it a bit more if thinking more opportunistic strikes instead of large scale warfare.
Organized - IT GOOD. While numbers have shown constantly that its below financial, the key difference is all you really have to do to make organized good is to expand and kicks in early. The hammer discounts are especially nice as well. As mentioned I was kind of planning on picking before I saw start (I always see a start and think financial to be fair).
Protective - It helps early keep you from going broke and getting to key techs. It helps late once in mercantilism. It makes you annoying on defense. I think if you take you should probably be trying to grab GLH to make up for the fact that it isn't by the numbers as strong as fin or org. That being said GLH is one hell of a wonder and since your protective, no one will cancel open borders with you or demand tribute. Its probably better with a small number of players and you can pair with org or Ind to make it extra clear what your doing so no one challenges.
 
Industrious - I like it, but at emperor you kind of need to pair it with an actual econ trait (sure Mjmd now you tell past Mjmd). I could also see taking over creative or charismatic to try to land stonehenge and then do the oracle > MC thing. We will see where i am in pick order. I also kind of want to wait for the buff to national wonders Charriu promised. I would probably not pair with Fin unless Commodore says its a super large map.
Spiritual:- did get a buff with serfdom being buffed. Also some cool stuff you can do with it. Miguilito used very well in PB54. Not usually on my list as high skill level required. That being said, if you plan on grabbing a religion and going organized (fav civic) then you save 3 turns  anarchy early which = a significant amount of growth ect. Should probably have a monastery building discount as well so its super obvious your going monk wonders!

So in summary I wouldn't mind picking: Imp, creative, charismatic, or ind. Paired with either Fin or Org (I forgot to mention that the fact Realms plays on larger maps gives these two a larger share than if smaller maps were played).

[Charriu]

I see the future of CtH starts to influence the present of CtH.

[Amicalola]

I'm also really looking forward to the circumnav change (if that's certain). Great Swiss army knife change of buffing EXP and nerfing Circumnav a little (love the coastal traderoute addition, just maybe slightly overtuned)

[Mjmd]

Just play prior song again. Its civ thoughts time!

Assuming on a medium to large map, I like civs that either have early expansion focus or help economically in some way. Or generally good. To note I think civ should fit traits. Unless I'm going for beatdown agg Rome or trying to pick India, usually I pick leader first.

Econ civs that hit early enough:
English - super late (for my parameters), but does have good starting techs in CtH. Would want to be Fin.
Mali - I think I would want to be financial, but Ind is not required
Zulu -  hate their starting techs under CtH normally, but with this start would lead to all tiles improved pretty fast.

EARLY Expansion civs:
India
Inca
note both are myst civs, which actually makes me not want to pick them here (and in general slows them down which is just good balance). Improved cow is just such a good tile to work, but on plus side probably get to avoid fishing for a sec if seeing shared food sites aren't (kind of looks like floodplains south and some random land NE and E).

Generally good:
Rome (as long as not super big map praets are still fine and I actually like the UB more than probably anyone).
Viking - yes Jowy playing in PB60 reminded me they should probably just be in the generally good category on any map with descent amount of water, which hopefully this map is light on......


Pin thoughts on leader / civ pretty please!
China - mainly for UU off ships.
Khmer - but probably some future game with expansive.

[pindicator]

I haven't kept up with some of the latest CtH changes, but is PRO still strong? I know if tails off once you start getting OBs, but it still lets you snowball early and that's really what counts.

I'm of the opinion that you should pick the civ that is interesting to play, and then pick the leader that best fits with your start/civ you chose. You mentioned some early aggression, and I would add to not forget about Mongolia/Carthage or any other mounted. Heck, even France if you want to go for a later attack as 2-move gunpowder units are very strong. But really, I think pick the that sounds like the most fun for you.

[Mjmd]

Formal map size is Small.

Some people may have thought Commodore just forgot my tile / player question. Alternatively you could be distrustful like me and think this is either quite a bit larger or smaller than 120 / player and hes trying to be tricky. Which mainly I think will just lead to weird picks.


Anyways never played multiplayer on a small map. My initial thought is it might cancel out emperor a bit.

@ Pindicator - it isn't PB52 strong, its just 100% domestic now. But yes still keeps you expanding early and good once in merc. Definitely the 3rd econ trait, which is fine as its also the only one that's part military too. If you pick protective in my opinion you should probably at least make an attempt at TGLH. I don't think I mentioned early aggression, but at this point maybe I did . In any case I'm not looking to be per se, but rather plan on just being opportunistic.

I'm 2nd last in pick list. I guess I'll see what gets picked and what I feel like when the time comes. 2nd last means I have a descent shot at whatever combo I want. To note I am a  little more down on India in the light of day as I don't actually have a ton of forests to choppity chop.

[pindicator]

So it sounds like you're looking for something that lets you be opportunistic early, but otherwise go early economy and then expand with more of a Medieval / Renaissance era unique unit? England certainly fits that bill, and India too.

Charismatic Greece? Cheap Odeons to grow tall, a buffed Phalanx to defend in the early stages and stays relevant into knights. I suspect a smaller map may mean less luxuries to go around, but Commodore may just tightly pack stuff anyway. (Not his style, IMO.) CHA becomes a half econ / half military trait in this setup, so paired with something like EXP or IMP I could see it doing some good work.

France is a traditional favorite as it gets great starting techs and a 2-move musket is wonderful - especially if you are drafting them. Could really pair it with anything.

Small map is also going to mean more noticeable expenses on the early cities, so ORG may merit some consideration. ORG Sumeria or Aztecs could be nice.

[Mjmd]

I'm thinking either charismatic or creative paired with financial I think* I may pair Cha with Org as well depending on civ. Its funny that Zara wasn't picked pre PB59 and now when I want to repeat pick he was first

Because map size is small, but tiles / player is hidden, I kind of want to do a civ that can play either big or small
So far for civs we have:
Mongolia - agg - good for tighter to medium map - like
Sumeria - can be either agg or help costs if larger map (I like this hedge) and kind of wish it had fallen to me since Pin suggested.
Spain - seems to think probably bigger map? Probably pair with protective which is also fine smaller though

I'm very aware of how good 2 move drafted muskets can be...... but map would have to large enough I'm sure of getting that far. Sumeria sadly already taken as mentioned. I'm not high on Aztecs on a Commodore map. 

I kind of want to do the financial Mali thing. I've wanted to do forever and not knowing if map will be tight or larger seems like Mali plays both sides well. Prob do fin/cre to skip mysticism for sure. Could also see Cha/Fin to just work more tiles though. Again I'm leery on there being a lot of happy.
The other civ I could take would just be Rome probably paired with organized. If I was sure it was under 100/player I would totally be up for Agg something, but probably just do Cha/Org. I don't think its going to be super high tiles / player even if its not tight, so Rome can probably be opportunistic around cats.

[pindicator]

With Mali are you more looking for the early defense of the Skirmisher to let you claim territory early? Or are you looking more towards the passive boost of the Mint to help the economy get that extra push?

You know, one of my best games ever here was done with Victoria of Mali The Mint was deceptively good in that game despite not picking IND to boost it, just to let me push up a little more out of the economy while I leaned on Vicky's traits.

EDIT: Actually it was Victoria of Sumeria. Huh, well I still feel like she's a good with Mali