[PB62] Tarkeel and civac feel the need for speed

[civac2]

Code:

00 - 1:00 - boat:00 - (Mining)
01 - 1:03 - boat:02 -
02 - 1:06 - boat:04 -
03 - 1:09 - boat:06 -
04 - 1:12 - boat:08 -
05 - 1:15 - boat:10 -
06 - 1:18 - boat:12 - (Mining,+0, Agri)
07 - 1:21 - boat:14 -
08 - 2:00 - boat:18 -
09 - 2:00 - boat:24 -
10 - 2:00 - work:00 - (boat,+0)
11 - 2:00 - work:09 -
12 - 2:00 - work:18 - (Agri,+13, BW)
13 - 2:00 - work:27 -
14 - 2:00 - work:36 -
15 - 2:00 - work:45 -
16 - 2:00 - work:54 -
17 - 2:00 - warr:00 - (work,+3, w1 -> farm:1)
18 - 2:07 - warr:05 -
19 - 2:14 - warr:07 -
20 - 2:21 - warr:09 -
21 - 3:04 - warr:11 - (w1 -> farm:5)
22 - 3:15 - warr:13 - (BW,+2, w1 - >move)
23 - 4:00 - work:00 - (warr,+0, w1 -> chop:1)
24 - 4:00 - work:14
25 - 4:00 - work:28 - (+20chop, w1 -> chop:3)
26 - 4:00 - sett:00 - (work,+2, w1 -> move, w2 -> move)
27 - 4:00 - sett:16 - (w1 -> chop:1, w2 -> chop:1)
28 - 4:00 - sett:30
29 - 4:00 - sett:44 - (+40chop,  w1 -> chop:3, w2 -> chop:3)
30 - 4:00 - sett:98

Two hammers short for settler on turn 30 with two workers, one warrior and the work boat for the fish.

Edit: Should add some info. This seems to be stronger than worker first and works with Spain.

[Tarkeel]

So, civac locked in Spain for us. We had a lot of discussion, and the three main contenders were Spain, Rome and Netherlands. Spain had easily the worst starting techs of the three, missing all of agriculture, mining and hunting. This was a slight issue in the worker first opening, but a complete non-issue in the workboat openings we tested. So we decided to try something new, since it looks viable.

For your pleasure, here are the three Spain variants I tested:

Spain Variant 1: Workboat opening, stupid first version
Workboat->Worker->Settler (T29)
Agriculture->Mining->BronzeWorking->Hunting->Wheel (T32)

T0 Settle->Fish; Workboat; Agriculture
T5 Agriculture->Mining
T8 Size2->Fish+Oasis
T11 Mining->BronzeWorking
T12 Fish+Deer
T14 Size3->Fish+Oasis+Deer; Workboat->Worker
T20 Worker->Settler; Farm corn
T21 BronzeWorking->Hunting; Revolt slavery
T25 Worker SE
T26 Chop
T28 Wheel->Pottery
T29 Settler->Worker

Spain Variant 2: Workboat opening, growing to size 5 on two warriors:
Workboat->Worker->Warrior->Warrior->Settler (T31)
Agriculture->Mining->BronzeWorking->Hunting->Wheel (T33)

T0 Settle->Fish; Worker; Agriculture
T5 Agriculture->Mining
T8 Size2->2xForestplains
T11 Workboat->Warrior; Work Fish+Deer
T12 Mining->BronzeWorking
T15 Size3->Fish+Oasis+Deer; Warrior->Worker
T21 Worker->Warrior
T22 BronzeWorking->Hunting; Revolt slavery
T26 Size 4; Hunting->Wheel; Worker SE
T27 Chop
T28 Size 5; Warrior->Settler
T30 2-Whip settler; Worker E, Camp
T31 Settler->Worker; Settler E-E

Spain Variant 3: Worker first
Worker->Workboat->Warrior->Settler (T30)
Agriculture->Mining->BronzeWorking->Hunting->Wheel (T36)

T0 Settle->Fish; Worker; Agriculture
T5 Agriculture->Mining
T11 Mining->BronzeWorking
T12 Worker->Workboat; Worker farm corn
T17 Worker to hill (Could also go to forest or deer)
T18 Size 2; Worker mine hill
T22 Worker NE-SE
T23 Worker idle; Workboat->Warrior
T24 BronzeWorking->Hunting; Revolt
T26 Size 4; Swap to settler to collect chop
T27 Worker SE; Swap to warrior to finish
T28 Warrior->Settler; Worker chop
T29 Hunting->Wheel; Whip settler
T30 Settler->Worker

[civac2]

We have been discussing the leader pick yesterday. Initially, Tarkeel wanted to take a PRO leader with Spain for the double synergy with their citadel. During the discussion we reached a near-consensus that i'ts better to just take a power pick like Julius Caesar. But I'm not so sure anymore.

Some preliminary considerations:
The reason IMP is desirable is due to the presumably small map (nominal map size is Small). This is exactly the scenario for IMP to be very strong.
Similarly, ORG is interesting for it's power.

PRO reduces the cost of citadels and walls and increases their value.

Base hammer cost for wall + citadel:
67 (stone, forge)
60 (stone, forge, OR)
47 (PRO, stone, forge)
43 (PRO, stone, forge, OR)

Commerce:
PRO is worth 0-3 base commerce in the relevant part of the game, depending on domestic islands and foreign trade routes

Having written this down, I must revise my opinion again.
Let's pick Julius Caesar. Synergy is for losers.

[Charriu]

Hate to throw another wrench in that, but Spanish citadels do not require walls in the mod.

[Tarkeel]

FWIW, I had factored in that we didn't need walls when talking about 1-whipping citadels everywhere. So base hammer for PRO+Stone would be 34 hammers. PRO would also be nice to make it easier to survive until the relevant era, but I think we'll be heading for Engineering and citadels pretty early for the economic boost.

[civac2]

Right, I forgot to mention the defensive aspect of PRO. It's quite useful if the map really is small. However, IMP has somewhat similar effect in that you get more build queues faster or more hammers for axes. Both against a Mali choke attempt (assuming we can defend copper) and praetorians better archers are not that good.

Corrected base hammer cost for citadel:
45 (stone, forge)
40 (stone, forge, OR)
31 (PRO, stone, forge)
29 (PRO, stone, forge, OR)

[Tarkeel]

Mjmd's Mali and SD's Rome are the two civs with most potential to harass us early on, and I think both can be incentivized to look elsewhere. Skirmishers are the one that look worst on paper actually.

[civac2]

Boudica. Oh, boy.

SD is backsliding.

[Tarkeel]

I did predict the AGG, but thought it would be paired with something more sensible then CHA... Julius then, or the slow-power Lieu-Yi?

[civac2]

Let me think about it for a bit. I will hit you up on Discord.