A new mod enters the ring - Introducing "Close to Home"

[DaveV]

I have to say I start to be really annoyed by all the information that Civ 4 leaks unintended through it's mechanics.  

Flying camera, anyone?

[naufragar]

I have to say I start to be really annoyed by all the information that Civ 4 leaks unintended through it's mechanics.  

Flying camera, anyone?

You take that back!

[Jowy]

Wait what does the flying camera reveal?

[naufragar]

Mountains, hills, forests are still visible in silhouette. You can't really get good terrain info, but if you're on the coast you can use the flying camera to see how far the sea extends. It's very, very little info and easy to misread, but I know that some folks (Civfanatic Hall of Fame and Civforum, maybe?) forbid it. For me, it's just so much fun to fly the camera around. Also makes for cool screenshots.

[DaveV]

Old Harry seems to be particularly good with flying camera, and I've seen him map out coastlines, hills, forests, and mountain ranges in what should be the black part of the map. I, on the other hand, suck. I have great difficulty getting the camera to do what I want it to do, and usually give up without getting the fancy screenshots naufragar is referring to.

[Charriu]

I tried the flying camera to map out my coastline in PB59 and it worked great. Yes, it leaks information, but unlike the other stuff this is not a game mechanic, but rather a debug tool that you need to activate yourself.

[T-hawk]

Maybe we're asking the wrong question. Maybe the question is, why is so much information hidden in the first place?

Civ seems to operate from a default of no information is known until it's revealed somehow. But maybe that's backwards. Think about tabletop board games. All information (map, units, techs, resources) is by its nature visible and public, and hidden information only occurs when it's deliberately designed to be (typically cards in hand, or simultaneous decision making like in Diplomacy.) Civ could work like that if it wanted to.

"Leaking information is bad because you shouldn't have that information" is circular logic based on its own assumption. Why shouldn't you know information about the game you're playing?

I'm not quite sure what argument I'm making, just throwing out food for thought.

[BING_XI_LAO]

Not knowing things and having to guess is one of my favourite parts of computer strategy games.
Especially stuff like a military tech being something the enemy has to guess until there's actual units on the field.

[superdeath]

Not knowing things and having to guess is one of my favourite parts of computer strategy games.
Especially stuff like a military tech being something the enemy has to guess until there's actual units on the field.

thats all fine and dandy. HOWEVER.. Part of the reason Charriu added the feature was so that it wasnt a  (person with hours of timesink)> (person that can only really play the turn worth of time) Evens the playing field.


Other games where its an actual guess and not a "well, i had x amount of time to actually figure it out.."

Id love to see a button to enable/disable flying camera on the screen somewhere. (if there is one already... thats cuz im dumb. Also i dont plan on using it basically ever, so moot point but still)

[Charriu]

Maybe we're asking the wrong question.  Maybe the question is, why is so much information hidden in the first place?

Civ seems to operate from a default of no information is known until it's revealed somehow.  But maybe that's backwards.  Think about tabletop board games.  All information (map, units, techs, resources) is by its nature visible and public, and hidden information only occurs when it's deliberately designed to be (typically cards in hand, or simultaneous decision making like in Diplomacy.)  Civ could work like that if it wanted to.

"Leaking information is bad because you shouldn't have that information" is circular logic based on its own assumption.  Why shouldn't you know information about the game you're playing?

I'm not quite sure what argument I'm making, just throwing out food for thought.

I think we have to differentiate between different kinds of information if we look at "hidden" and "leaking" information. I see the following:

Truely hidden: This is information that the game makers intended to hide like for example the diplomacy information in Civ 5.
Unintended hidden: This is information that can be more or less easily be calculated. The game makers did not think about presenting that information. This could apply to the KTB display.
Emergent hidden: This is information that needs lots of calculation or good guesswork and stochastic to get. Think about all the crazy stuff you can get via the espionage mission.

I think especially the last case falls into "Leaking information is bad because you shouldn't have that information". Like why should I be able to determine what each enemy city is building via the sabotage espionage mission.
Lastly I have to disagree even in tabletop board games not all information is public like for example these emergent hidden information would require a lot of time to get in a board game or more easily think about playing cards.