American Politics Discussion Thread

[Mjmd]

Again it would have to be MASSIVE grass roots. I'm pretty sure Americans are just way too lazy to protest in large enough numbers. I'm also pretty sure people just don't care about things they can't see in front of their faces.

[Amicalola]

I am not sure to what extent this is just a stereotype, but my understanding is that in the US, many people live paycheck to paycheck, and thus cannot afford to protest.

[Boro]

Another stereotype is where the americans are too well-off to risk protesting when they already have most of what they want.

the events in the summer of 2020, brought about by the ongoing ethnic tensions, would be because one ethnic group has fallen (or perceived to have fallen) so low that the risks of protesting were not any more of not protesting, at least in this case.

[Mjmd]

Another stereotype is where the americans are too well-off to risk protesting when they already have most of what they want.

Its not like its a "risk" to protest, its just requires you to care enough to do it. I definitely think there's a "comfort and distraction prohibit wanting to change". As proven with the pandemic sadly I think Americans only get upset when they personally are affected. Something they can't see and doesn't seem to have a direct impact on you like campaign finance reform or climate change?

[T-hawk]

I was busy over the weekend, catching up to the important points:

Urban areas are the most productive and are what supports the US economy. They vote for the Democrats

This isn't so clear. There is some evidence that the causation goes the other way around: productive areas attract Dem voters. Lower class people live in cities because that's where lower class jobs exist, the transit workers and restaurant servers and retail businesses and such. The most well known example of this is Austin, Texas, which developed as a tech center and went from red to blue.

There's also this point: The productivity that society needs happens in red areas. The grain and beef you eat, the lumber to build your house, the metals mined to build your car and the factory that assembled it -- those all came from the red states. The productivity that happens in cities isn't real productivity - it's productivity-adjacent, banking and advertising and entertainment - but nothing that happens in New York City is growing and delivering your food.

T-Hawk, we had this talk before, you don't seem to get what a society is. ... What you advocate for is a class system where you are above the others.

No, I'm advocating for the equality where I don't force my views on anyone else and they don't force theirs on me. That's exactly the opposite of classist.

The true irony though is that T-Hawk aspires to be a greater leech than however he imagines any number of Democrats and/or his own sister to be. He benefits from the stability and security of a strong, taxpayer-funded government and civil society, including public health measures, as well as numerous privileges conferred to him as a white man of at least some means. Gut that society the way he advocates, and he wouldn't last long at all in the resulting catastophe.

No, I don't benefit in any way from these public health measures. My risk from Covid is indistinguishable from zero. Yet the neurotic hysteria has now utterly fucking destroyed two entire years of what I live my life to do with barely any sign of abating. Your precious hive-mind that you call a society has already chosen to gut my entire fucking life. I'm merely reacting in kind.

And as for the catastrophe - which side's cities were on fire when they decided to defund that government?

So you want businesses to have the right to discriminate against people for their skin colour or sexuality; but you don't want businesses to have the right to discriminate against you for your medical choices. Hilarious.

No, I didn't say that. I never talked about forbidding businesses from enacting medical requirements. Of course I don't want them to, but that's not the same as wanting government to forcibly forbid them. As before, you authoritarian-leftists don't even realize the distinction, you jump immediately from idea X to the government forcibly enacting idea X, you don't even realize the nuance that you can want something without wanting forcible goverment imposition of it.

To be more clear: The free market should sort this out. Let businesses enact medical requirements if they want. Or not if they don't. Let's see where customers take their business.

(And I think it's pretty clear which way they will go. Look at any college football stadium.)

[Jowy]

There's also this point: The productivity that society needs happens in red areas.  The grain and beef you eat, the lumber to build your house, the metals mined to build your car and the factory that assembled it -- those all came from the red states.  The productivity that happens in cities isn't real productivity - it's productivity-adjacent, banking and advertising and entertainment - but nothing that happens in New York City is growing and delivering your food.

To be more clear: The free market should sort this out.  Let businesses enact medical requirements if they want.  Or not if they don't.  Let's see where customers take their business.

Be careful what you wish for: All of those "real production" jobs would disappear abroad in a free market. They only exist thanks to subsidies.

No, I don't benefit in any way from these public health measures.  My risk from Covid is indistinguishable from zero.  Yet the neurotic hysteria has now utterly fucking destroyed two entire years of what I live my life to do with barely any sign of abating.  Your precious hive-mind that you call a society has already chosen to gut my entire fucking life.  I'm merely reacting in kind.

That's what all the antivaxxers think, until it does happen to them and they're stuck in a ventilator, with their family members begging for prayers and setting up gofundme's for hospital bills and funeral costs that they can't afford.

You can thank Trump and his supporters for how bad the pandemic got in the US and how long it will continue. You're only at 58.2% vaccination rate despite buying out all the vaccines before any other country.

[Jowy]

One great example about the power dynamics is that if workers are striking for better working conditions, the employer can cut off their medical insurance to force them back to work without meeting any demands. Now, the workers can have tremondous power when they stand together, but it is deeply ingrained in the minds of US workers that they do not deserve anything better, that they just aren't working hard enough to have what they want. Many also simply don't realize how bad they have it over there and how the same companies are still doing business in Europe with way better conditions for the workers.

[T-hawk]

Be careful what you wish for: All of those "real production" jobs would disappear abroad in a free market. They only exist thanks to subsidies.

Wouldn't you globalists think that's a good thing? Let's move money to those third world areas. That would help defeat the inequality and classism that you're all about, right?

Or are you not in favor of globalism when the money is moving away from you?

Second answer to that: Those jobs go abroad because the West pushes them away with minimum wage mandates. Get rid of that and the jobs don't go abroad.

That's what all the antivaxxers think, until it does happen to them and they're stuck in a ventilator, with their family members begging for prayers and setting up gofundme's for hospital bills and funeral costs that they can't afford.

If this is still your picture of the pandemic, you're still stuck believing the fake news fear machine, and I can only hope you can learn to think for yourself someday.

If you are under 50, with healthy weight and vitamin D and no comorbidities, your risk from Covid really is indistinguishable from zero. It's literally one in a million or less. Any news anecdotes you see about "healthy young person X died" are simply lying for the shock value -- once you see a picture, they're obviously morbidly obese.

You can thank Trump and his supporters for how bad the pandemic got in the US and how long it will continue. You're only at 58.2% vaccination rate despite buying out all the vaccines before any other country.

I thank Trump and his supporters for getting most of the US to sorta-mostly-open status and for holding out against governments dictating your bodily medical decisions. Or would you prefer to be an Australian under basically endless house arrest?

[Amicalola]

Australia is universally out of lockdown. Hey T-Hawk, you know how you're always going on about 'fake news?' But seriously, your repeated comments about Australia make it abundantly clear that your news sources are extremely unreliable, at least with foreign coverage.

Also worth noting: (part of) Australia went into lockdown following a combination of a remarkably mismanaged outbreak, and a ridiculously terrible vaccine distribution. Both were handled (bungled) by Right-Wing governments that were trying to skimp on necessary costs. Both ended up costing far more than the appropriate action would have.

[T-hawk]

I might just be out of date on what I've seen, I'm happy to take corrections.

But: Can you move to any place in your country and gather with complete freedom and no medical intrusiveness as in 2019? If not, then you're still in lockdown. Do not accept any "new normal" bullshit - once you get the camel's nose in the tent, you're never getting rid of it.