American Politics Discussion Thread

[Charriu]

Blame King George.  From the beginning, freedom has been about about freedom from government.

Darrell

So Americans are in favor of anarchy. 

[Mjmd]

Blame King George.  From the beginning, freedom has been about about freedom from government.

Darrell

So Americans are in favor of anarchy. 

I mean early American federal government had VERY VERY limited power. 

Fun fact since I'm doing sea shanties as a naming theme for forever, the Barbary pirates played a fairly major role in increasing federal power, because was a catalyst for increasing power to tax in order to build a navy.

[darrelljs]

So Americans are in favor of anarchy. 

Selectively, yes.  Military, banning abortions, banning anything beyond missionary sex with eyes closed between a man and woman for the purposes of procreation, etc. are notable exceptions.  Libertarians are like conservatives without those exceptions.

Fun fact since I'm doing sea shanties as a naming theme for forever, the Barbary pirates played a fairly major role in increasing federal power, because was a catalyst for increasing power to tax in order to build a navy.

Hence Republicans war on taxes since basically Reagan.  The theory is without the revenue, government will shrivel back to the non-entity it was in the glory days of the Wild West.  Of course we just borrow more money to make up for the tax cuts.

Darrell

[Jowy]

you can actually get a free vaccine to protect you from Covid right now, yet some absolute idiots choose not to! Ask those 5 million dead if "it's not gonna happen to me" is a good excuse not to take 30 minutes out of your day to get the vaccine.

You veered off here into an argument I'm not making.  I'm not against vaccination at all.  I'm perfectly fine if anyone chooses to get it, if they think it improves their risk profile.  I'm just absolutely against anyone being forcibly compelled to undergo a medical procedure that they do not choose or want.

So should you.  There will come a time when you find your opinion is on the unpopular side of the mob, and you will find yourself in need of the rights and protections you're trying to burn down here.

I'll push back on things that I don't want, and I support things that I do want. That's what politics essentially is. A blanket "we can't let the government do this good thing because they might do a bad thing later" is just anarchism. The government already has the power to make rules and regulations, they are called laws. They are all around in your life effecting everything you do. I know you would not actually enjoy living in anarchy. Essentially you don't have a good reason to oppose vaccine mandates, but you do because it's the stance that conservatives have decided to take.

[Mjmd]

Somehow I don't think Republican tax cuts are a form or limiting government (unless they can use it to cut power from Democrats). I'm pretty sure most people realize they are for the wealthy and corporations at this point.

Speaking of earlier conversation more globalized society. I don't know how effective it will actually be (probably not very at first), but the 15% min corporate tax rate is a big deal in that direction. Wish the states could do something similar somehow and stop fighting each other to give larger and larger tax incentives and government backed projects (note I live in WI so Foxconn debacle is large in my mind).

[T-hawk]

It's not about my fears, it's about

- protecting the most vulnerable
- reducing the chance of mutations
- getting Covid down to a managable level like for example the seasonal flu

These are fears. You're just fearing for others rather than yourself.

- If you work with the most vulnerable or get in close contact with them you have to get vaccinated and I see absolutely no problem mandating this. For example people who work in the ICU. This is part of your job in this field. If you don't like it then sorry you got the wrong job. Get out.
- Everybody who works for the government has to be vaccinated. The great thing here is, you can't even argue against that, since you already said it's ok if an employer demands a vaccination from his employees and since the state/government can be an employer they have the right to demand that.

So it's okay to discriminate based on medical status? Is it okay for employers and government to refuse to hire those with other medical statuses incurred of their own choices, such as pregnancy or obesity?

- But importantly the unvaccinated will have to go into lockdowns, quarantines etc.

No, absolutely fucking not. Existing while healthy is not a crime to be punishable by loss of freedom. End of story.

[T-hawk]

A blanket "we can't let the government do this good thing because they might do a bad thing later" is just anarchism.

It's vigilance. Misuse of government power abounds. The Patriot Act felt good to feel like we were protecting ourselves, then got abused to imprison all sorts of minor crimes on trumped-up "terrorism" charges.

Give the government control of your body for a vaccination and you set the precedent to give them control of your body for everything. Let's reduce obesity, that would be a good thing, let's deny access to ice cream if you don't have your healthy bodyweight pass. Let's improve physical health, that would be a good thing, let's issue mandatory Fitbits and fire you from your job if you haven't done your compulsory hours of exercise this week.

Do you see where this is going?

[superdeath]

People's thoughts on the Kyle Rittenhouse case?

[Charriu]

It's not about my fears, it's about

- protecting the most vulnerable
- reducing the chance of mutations
- getting Covid down to a managable level like for example the seasonal flu

These are fears.  You're just fearing for others rather than yourself.

- If you work with the most vulnerable or get in close contact with them you have to get vaccinated and I see absolutely no problem mandating this. For example people who work in the ICU. This is part of your job in this field. If you don't like it then sorry you got the wrong job. Get out.
- Everybody who works for the government has to be vaccinated. The great thing here is, you can't even argue against that, since you already said it's ok if an employer demands a vaccination from his employees and since the state/government can be an employer they have the right to demand that.

So it's okay to discriminate based on medical status?  Is it okay for employers and government to refuse to hire those with other medical statuses incurred of their own choices, such as pregnancy or obesity?

- But importantly the unvaccinated will have to go into lockdowns, quarantines etc.

No, absolutely fucking not.  Existing while healthy is not a crime to be punishable by loss of freedom.  End of story.

These are just your fears. How many people's bodily autonomy do you get to violate for the sake of your fears?

[Mjmd]

Slippery slope fallacy anyone?

But in all seriousness I've mentioned before that a lot of laws in regulations are focused to insure harm doesn't come upon one citizen from another. All slippery slope fears you have are self choices that affect just you. Not that sugar taxes haven't been tried, but that is so VERY far removed from what your suggesting down your slippery slope.

I do however agree about the Patriot Act. There are reasons that these kind of discussions are good to have, but in this case the public health is pretty clearly being served by a extremely minimal evasiveness, which is firmly backed in science, which is is also an important factor.