November 26th, 2021, 11:44
(This post was last modified: November 26th, 2021, 11:45 by Mjmd.)
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Like "my" specific wishes or the groups. I believe I was the only one not to want a lot of water  . I would assume the groups wishes then. It was a voted on setting so along with map size and other normal things map makers reveal might be something to vaguely state in org thread /shrug. You know so someone doesn't end up picking Dutch on a land based map, just to give a random example 
I am 100% in starts should be lush camp. The whole map doesn't have to be, but the most exciting part of the game is the start, so give people exciting starts. Mission accomplished.
Hmmm my rough math makes the Babylonian UB seem worse than the Kymer building. Mind you if you have strong preferences for Cha vs exp obviously a factor. I wasn't heavily leaning towards, just caught my eye as I was considering civs. Possible backup if I end up picking a leader first, which I know I said I was going to pick a civ first, but if everyone thinks Cha is the bees knees I only really want to pair it org/cha or fin/cha, which is a shorter list than possible civs.
November 26th, 2021, 11:51
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CHA seems weak given the ample happiness resources you typically find on RB maps. Cheaper monuments and promotions are OK. But the whole package seems underpowered compared to ORG, EXP, IMP, even FIN. Why do want it?
November 26th, 2021, 12:05
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I've copied and edited a prior trait analysis below
Quote:Charismatic - Swiss army knife of doing random things that always make it pretty good but not high in my normal snake pick. That being said Amica picked for PB55 that I was ded lurking and was pretty good. Like its part expansion, part economy, and part military. Its good with a high food capital because you can overwhip early. It is a better trait long term with additional happy which really shines after granaries and pre calendar. For some odd spoilery reason I'm very aware of how brutal great generals combined with charismatic can be.
So the nice thing about Charismatic is that it does A LOT of different things. I would never pick it as my only econ trait, but it does help the early economy. Its not the best expansion trait, but it does help expansion. It isn't the best military trait, but it does help military. Normally my default is Org/Fin with a pure expansion trait (creative or Imp being my current favs). So I'm going to pick either an org or fin leader but what to pair with. With all the 2nd ring food it seems like cities to share food are going to be easy to place reducing value of creative. I've already stated I don't like Imp on emperor medium size maps. In other words both my normal pairing traits I don't want. Its possible I do want exp, but with this much food I kind of think that unless we were given 3-4 early game happy, that Cha could still be very valuable. Cheap monuments for border pops where needed is also nice. Later game Cha is nice for military.
Again I'm not really into picking two eco traits without easy food tech start and emperor I just can't justify not picking org or fin. For instance I was kind of playing with the idea of pro mali, but I just don't think pro is quite strong enough. Although org/pro for GLH is worthy. I also would sometime try Ind/Pro, but not this game.
November 26th, 2021, 12:28
(This post was last modified: November 26th, 2021, 12:28 by Charriu.)
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(November 26th, 2021, 11:44)Mjmd Wrote: Hmmm my rough math makes the Babylonian UB seem worse than the Kymer building. Mind you if you have strong preferences for Cha vs exp obviously a factor. I wasn't heavily leaning towards, just caught my eye as I was considering civs. Possible backup if I end up picking a leader first, which I know I said I was going to pick a civ first, but if everyone thinks Cha is the bees knees I only really want to pair it org/cha or fin/cha, which is a shorter list than possible civs.
Keep in mind that the Babylon UB also gives happiness from the base building, which is the reason why I am fine with it being a bit weaker then the Khmer
November 26th, 2021, 13:25
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I like a good argument, so here are my reasoning for why the PB61 start is better. Both starts have 5 tiles that are better than standard tiles, so let's look primarily at those:
PB61 has three "basic" resources that can be improved to 5f1h, 5f1c and 5f1c while this map only has two basics that improve to 5f1h and 4f2c, also requiring a workboat. Both maps have an animal resource, and in this category this map is trly better with 5f1h1c vs 3f3c. This map also has 3f2c and 3f1h tiles that aren't improvable in the early game while the 61 map has another hunting tile that works out to 2f2h1c.
November 27th, 2021, 00:06
(This post was last modified: November 27th, 2021, 01:28 by Mjmd.)
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To be fair the 3f1h tile can be improved to a 4f,1c. Also, on emperor the 3f,2 of an oasis is probably about even to a 2f,2h,1c tile ish. The raw amount of food available to me is the main reason this is so powerful (also one of the main reasons for cha). However, the fact that all the food in PB61 start is easy on the tech tree is certainly a huge plus in having options, which I think I'm ok saying they are even for that reason.
I think I'm sold on picking Hannibal (Fin/Cha) first and letting some random civ get back to me. A lot of my 'usual' civs don't work with this start, so force me to try something different. I'm even vaguely considering civs like the French, Japanese, or Sumeria because they all start with the expensive wheel tech plus a food tech to help get to pottery faster. Wheel at start would delay BW, which is probably just bad though. I probably still prefer the Dutch or Vikings (no way Rome is getting back). If nothing else the English almost never get chosen and there are enough players where it seems reasonable that civ will be relevant plus has the two more expensive 'useful' starting techs.
November 30th, 2021, 00:51
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Last time we left off I was on Hannibal (Cha/Fin), then I spent Sunday chopping wood and thinking, mainly of this pick lol. Ended up at Org/Cha of Sumeria
The problem with Org vs Fin is that I still believe that Fin is a better late game trait, org does a lot for free. You don't have to do any work for it. Its better for fast expanding (which this game looks like even without imp) and also early whipping wars (no reason at all this is on my mind). It also is better early game to get to pottery which is huge this map. As well as getting to early wonders and religions (not as good as pro for that purpose, but still good). I'm kind of on bring back 50% bank bonus for Fin. If its going to be the late game ultimate trait, lean into it.
Anyways, one of the things with Org is the awkwardness of code of laws. When do you tech it? Unless you are feeling super cozy its probably just better to tech MC for forges first. Forges are just a great building to get up and running. In PB61 Vanrober oracled CoL which along with running over two greens was really powerful. Mind you it would have been powerful regardless. Its a good plan, but in a field with 8 others, might not be reliable. Also, 60h early is still actually quite a bit. Anyways, I've always really wanted to try Sumeria, but one of the issues with Sumeria is that 90h early is even more, but 45h? That sounds more doable to me. It also sends a strong signal that I will be going priesthood, so might be able to snag Oracle in MC without too much fuss. And even if I don't, its not a big deal because I still love org religion so want to go down religious tree anyways and this pays me off for it.
Now charismatic doesn't have quite the same synergy as with Fin, but I decided to still go with it as a support trait. I actually probably would have ended up at exp/org, but it was taken already.
December 5th, 2021, 12:28
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Opponent analysis above. All reports will now be typed by my 3 year old (or one of the kids anyways). After end of PB62 I feel like it makes about as much sense as what I type.
December 5th, 2021, 12:56
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I actually thought your opponent analysis in 62 was pretty spot on.
December 5th, 2021, 13:54
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(December 5th, 2021, 12:28)Mjmd Wrote: 1111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaasmnkllujukok5gk5t9poo9r9or4409o45rkkkkkkr9tg8kfkkf55555555k555555555kf5foooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooiuyyyoppggtpgfrdfhiyftu56ffffffffffffffffffddkdddddddndkkkkkkkkk12j344555678900000000000000000087665433211111111111124566998089876tt9098667654eeee2ssssssyh66666666666hhhhhhhhhggggggggggggggggggggggggmgytpkk,bg.jjfjfjfjreeuuiriirroporruuttuf5bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbd7d7d7d7d7d7d7d7d7d7d7d7d7d7d7d7d7bg5tfccccccccccccccccccccccccc5gt5gt5gt5gt5gt5gt5gt5gt5gt5gt5gt5gt5gt5gt5gt5gt5gtvivffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff5trnvfffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggd5d5d5d5d5d5d5d5d5d5vvrffffffffffhffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffnfffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffcvi8;[;'
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Opponent analysis above. All reports will now be typed by my 3 year old (or one of the kids anyways). After end of PB62 I feel like it makes about as much sense as what I type. Civ 8 confirmed. 
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