American Politics Discussion Thread

[Mjmd]

What's your acceptable level of death? You've never answered and I know you never will.

I haven't answered that because I haven't acquired the inputs to calculate it.  A prior post touches on the right approach, compare the quality-adjusted life years lost to Covid itself versus lost to the lockdown.  With emphasis on the quality - my own life has become a shithole with everything I strive to do destroyed by this garbage.

It's pretty easy to work out a rough estimate that the lockdown measures have already been far worse than the disease itself.  For the US, compare less than a million elderly deaths with an average remaining life expectancy of maybe six years, to a population of 300 million now losing to varying degrees two years of schooling and travel and entertainment with who knows how much more still to come.  It's not even close.

Governments can't handle this question because they can't acknowledge the quality factor - they can't treat the elderly as less important, and they can't quantify who gets their lives screwed up and ruined by the lockdown bullshit.  Governments can only manage to the cold impartial number of deaths, which is exactly the wrong approach to minimize total harm.

There is ample data on vaccines, masks, and quarantine measures helping to flatten the curve and prevent death. In fact most spikes have occurred after such measures were lightened.

And the latter of those sentences sabotages the former.  Masks and quarantine measures do absolutely nothing to stop the virus, they can only ever delay it until whenever you aren't masked or quarantined, and then the exponential curve starts right back up again.  By this point, any argument for masks and lockdowns has no exit point, it's just arguing for them forever.  I saw this coming as soon as the first mask mandates went on.

Congrats T-Hawk you've moved me to profanity.

My states hospitals are currently near capacity............. They are having to start sending patients to other hospitals. People are dying / getting affected right now because of other peoples extremely minor inconveniences.... If nothing else you have to acknowledge the health care system literally could not handle / have handled how the absolute horror of deaths and sickness whatever the hell policies you would have done. I CANNOT FUCKING BELIEVE IT THAT YOU ARE STILL MAKING THIS ARGUMENT WITH 800,000 dead. I have 70 year old parents that I love and cherish (and who my kids do as well). Even vaccinated they have a good Russian roulette chance of dying the more they are exposed. I can't tell if you just can't look at data, but yes half of that 200K was 85 years or older with another 200k 75-85, but JUST TRY to think of how shitty it would to lose a father or mother because of bloody politics. Hell there are still 147K in the 50-64 age range and it makes me sick to even think of that. 

I've said this before, but I am 100% positive that the US would rather just roll over than ever fight a war again where the American public actually has to sacrifice something (and not just our military families). Oh my life changes in any way what so ever, nah ya we can just let the other country win.

Why is this so political in the US, post incoming. I've been meaning to write for a while.

[Mjmd]

Why is Covid sooo political in the US? There is obviously going to be some percentage of the population that is naturally anti government intervention and we've obviously had a small but growing anti vax movement for a while. There is political power there, but not enough in its natural state to support many politicians / a political party. However, as noted I think a lot of people (including gov officials) were surprised by the sheer amount of unvaccinated compared to what you would expect. I would expect the US to have a higher natural unvaxed percentage than other developed countries, but its obviously being amplified by the sheer quantity of anti vax media coverage and political rhetoric. Now Republicans are enacting voting right restrictions on the math that even if they hit some % of their own voters its still a net gain for them. Why would they kill off a disproportionate number of their own and provide a clear example of absolute stupidity for Democrats to mock and rally behind. I wonder if Florida could potentially flip back to Democrat for instance.

I'm sure T-Hawk would spout some "freedom" rhetoric ect. This has some merits. Its interesting that the suffrage movement didn't believe in masks because they thought it was an effort to silence them. So even though a lot of their major marches were during the Spanish flu you don't see pictures of them masked. HOWEVER, people have to think back longer than a second (which they never do) to a simpler time WAY back in early 2020 when I had to try to explain statistics to a friend on why "yes in fact Covid is worse than the flu" (even though even I had no clue how bad it would eventually get).

This site leans towards people who have a casual understanding of history at the very least. Studying history you know that the recorded # of enemy troops is always higher. If you win, what a great victory! If you lose, why of course you couldn't beat twice your number! It doesn't take a genius to easily understand that leaders and governments for pretty much ever have tried / continue to try to make themselves look good. This is actually magnified by freedom of press and democracies. The press, needing to feed their viewers, happily takes pretty much anything and makes a mountain out of the tiniest of molehills. Politicians then try to spin the media coverage as much as possible to try get reelected. I don't think we have any disagreement so far?

I've said before (not sure if in this thread or not, but I have to my wife and friends) that I am 100% positive that the first 3-4 months of 2020 that the actions taken would have been the same if Democrats would have been in power. Most countries were slow to take up quarantine and other measures like masks. Its not hard to understand why. For autocracies it would mean you aren't as strong as you like to pretend. In democracies its even worse because there are actual voting consequences to inconveniencing your citizens. Let alone causing any kind of panic. Imagine Democrats implementing a lock down for swine flu and then it turns out not to be that big of a deal.

So you are in government and it turns out that yes Covid is actually kind of a big deal. What now? Well if you are China and getting a lot of international attention you can go full government measures (with some side benefit of increasing gov control in areas like Hong Kong; there are reasons these kind of conversations are good). I want to emphasize there are a lot of winding paths in politics. Autocracies can choose their path depending on calculus of what the leader thinks is the least destabilizing for their power. For freedom of press democracies for the most part you see governments implementing measures. Most people see large amounts of their fellow citizens dying as bad (most people).

One of the reasons some people like Trump is that he doesn't talk like a politician. He just says things. Most politicians in democracies talk in non committal vague statements especially on developing issues. The reason for this is pretty clear. They can then spin whatever they said before based on a developing situation. Trump and his administration continuously made very firm definitive statements that Covid wasn't that big of a deal. Obviously right wing media followed suit. Now you are Donald Trump who pretty much never admits you are wrong. Everything you say and do is "perfect". Its becoming increasingly clear to larger sections of the voting public that "yes in fact Covid is kind of a big deal". Trump, Republicans, and right wing media now have a choice. Admit its a big deal, which would mean admitting you were wrong (because you didn't use vague statements like most politicians would have) OR try to do the minimal possible to appear your doing something, while also continuing the Rheoteric that it isn't that big of a deal. Trump obviously was looking at reelection so keeping the economy looking strong is of the utmost importance. That combined with not admitting you were wrong obviously starts down a path where you have to keep justifying that you were never wrong to begin with. You have to justify the increasing deaths in terms of the economy and freedom (two very powerful forces in the American mind). Obviously this is all amplified because Republicans and right wing media can't seem to unstick themselves from Trump so they also have to start this same spiral.

Its easy to see how this relates to masks. Masking would mean admitting Covid is a problem. Also, people hate wearing them (I hate wearing them). There is already political power in populace discomfort. If you are Trump, Republicans, and right wing media this seems like a no brainer. We don't want to admit we were wrong to begin with and there is power here? SOLD.

I've skipped some turns in this road, but lets get finally to vaccines. Can we all see where this is going? I have to say I honestly couldn't. I was a bit naive. Covid denial was deep and entrenched. If it isn't / hasn't been a big deal and we've been doing all these "stupid" measures regarding it, why would I get the vaccine? If wearing a mask is a "moral affront to my freedom" why should I take a shot for something that isn't a big deal?

People get involved in politics. For some reason people seem to have forgotten that politics is about power. I want to emphasize that this applies to Democrats as well. Anyways, maybe enough people will die and people will be directly affected (themselves or someone close) that maybe we SLOWLY start to see this turn around. Even if you are younger and healthier you would think a month bed ridden or large hospital bills would do something..... Sadly, people don't like admitting they are wrong either so I don't hold a ton of hope. I'm not sure what the future will hold for Covid in the US, but I am sure thanks to zealots like T-Hawk there will be more death and pain for a good long while.

[The Black Sword]

I for my part have no problem with most of the measures taking during the pandemic.

- Mask, I will wear them even after the pandemic when I myself am sick and around people or during winter outside. (Really nice to have a warm face/nose during winter)
- Working from home. I personally love it and see no reason to return to work
- Traveling less. I absolutely hate travel so that's a plus for me. Also makes those travels a lot more meaningful, when you do them.
- Reducing contacts to other people. No problem. I am an introvert I love being alone.
- No hand shakes. Glad to get rid of it. Always hated it.

I understand that others have problems with those measures. I get that. But I also see that those measures were lifted somewhat when the numbers are lower. So there is a light on the other side of the tunnel.

Yeah, since getting the vaccine the worst restriction I have is to keep the windows open in the classroom for ventilation. Technically I also wear a mask and show a QR code when I go to a restaurant, but they register way below the windows! Seems an easy trade to keep hospital beds free and the mortality rate down. Though we're a bit lucky in that we have very few anti-vax people compared to elsewhere.

Of course restrictions were a lot harsher pre-vaccines. Given how effective they turned out to be though, even if you let covid run free now vs back then you've already saved a ton of lives.

There also still seems to be a lot of promising research going into covid treatments too, more reason to hope that the mortality rate will continue to drop in the future.

[darrelljs]

Why is Covid sooo political in the US?

Trump.

Darrell

[Mjmd]

Why is Covid sooo political in the US?

Trump.

Darrell

That is the TLDR version.

[Mjmd]

[quote pid="801970" dateline="1639657909"]
Could you be a little more concrete like before, how bad would you say it is exactly? What % of the total deaths would you say are a result of covid and how many years do these people lose on average? (I've seen various estimates on this from minor to major.) Then taking the current level of vaccination as a baseline, what measures and vaccination requirements do you think will work best from here and how much do you believe they will reduce the above numbers?
[/quote]

Are you talking to me or T-Hawk? T-Hawk doesn't care about total deaths or that any measures are worth it for any number of deaths so I will assume me.

I can 100% say I value the next 15 years with my parents extremely highly (which is about the years loss would be). You could say 75000 dead in the 0-85 age range (and assume for awful reason people above that don't matter). I suspect we aren't near that yet either.

My 75,000 may honestly in a horror way too low (unless people willingly get vaccinated). Its possible that individual states are going to have to look at metrics like "what percent full are our hospital beds". Besides not getting pinned down on number of deaths, T-Hawk has no bloody plan or respect for what hospitals are going through / other people who need them. You can see CA go back to mask mandates. I suspect blue states at least will do so if they feel they need to. Again they can do things without admitting they've been wrong even if the act is unpopular at least their voting base might understand.

I don't envy Biden. I don't think politically he wanted to do the gov vaccine mandates. It energized republicans and was obviously going to be challenged in the courts, where if it goes to supreme court he will probably lose (on some ground that would be forgotten about if it was a Republican president). Democrats don't really gain anything by it either, but its probably the right thing to do. I would at the least also recommend this. Its about as far as I think the gov can go legally here in the US. You could try doing a nation wide mask mandate, but its politically risky (which again democracies have as a weakness but I can get more into that later). Besides being politically risky, I'm pretty sure at this point it just isn't that enforceable. There just isn't the political or honestly will from normal citizen for it.  I know gov buildings still have mask policies though.

To directly answer the question on my current brain, I'm just not smart enough for that. I hope someone near Biden is though.

[Cyneheard]

Mask mandates only work if there's a will to enforce them - which is barely there in deep blue areas. If a store puts up a sign saying "masks required" and none of the first ten unmasked people who walk in are asked to put it on...it's irrelevant.

Vaccination mandates (and in the case of the employer mandate - vaccinate or test weekly) are the least onerous way to get through this. Pretending that it's 2019, while COVID is killing 10x as many people as automobiles, is just a good way to prolong the pain.

I think SCOTUS could easily shoot down the employer mandate on narrow grounds - basically that OSHA doesn't have the authority - without calling in to question other vaccine mandates, so that's probably where the court will land. It's definitely a spot where a functioning Congress could pass a law, but a 50-50 Senate where the median Senator has decided the filibuster is sacrosanct isn't that.

[T-hawk]

When enough people are vaccinated we can return to a new normal. Unfortunately the willfully unvaccinated deny us that option.

No. Your GOVERNMENTS are denying you that option. They can drop the measures any time they want. The redder US states did a year ago and everything is fine.

Your government is abusing you, and until you understand that and fight back, you're going to get abused more.

Seriously. "Look what you're making me do to you until you comply with my demands." That is exactly the language of an abuser, and they never stop.

JUST TRY to think of how shitty it would to lose a father or mother because of bloody politics.

No. You lose a father or mother because of a virus that is going to do virus things, no matter what us puny powerless humans think we are doing to stop it. If you still think we can stop this after two years of masks and distancing and vaccines haven't accomplished shit, you're just completely living in delusional wish land and not in reality.

And yes, I did, or pretty close. My favorite aunt passed away of Covid. Doesn't change my opinion at all.

I CANNOT FUCKING BELIEVE IT THAT YOU ARE STILL MAKING THIS ARGUMENT WITH 800,000 dead.

I can fire this argument right back at you. I cannot fucking believe it that you are still okay with disrupting the schooling and socialization and travel and entertainment and everything else that makes life enjoyable for THREE HUNDRED MILLION in America. 800k is a drop in the bucket compared to that.

[quote removed by request]

I'm not sure if this was addressing me or Mjmd. I haven't researched it deeply, but there was that report from the CDC that said 94% of deaths had other comorbidities, and the median age of death is somewhere near 80 which amounts to a single-digit remaining life expectancy no matter what other factors there are. I base my opinion on those approximations, but they seem ballpark enough to go by.

As for Mjmd's political post, I sum up mine and the Republican feeling like this: Freedom includes the freedom to make bad decisions. If you don't have that, you don't have freedom in the first place. That's what America runs by, at least what remains of real America rather than the leftist-authoritarian shitholes. We do this for everything: guns, alcohol, obese food, drugs increasingly so now, and so on. Yes they can do harmful things, but that's the lesser evil compared to the authoritarian mandates where every one sets a precedent of destroying more freedom. If you are arguing for Covid mandates on public health grounds, you better also be trying to ban Budweiser and McDonald's for the same reasons.

[Mjmd]

I'm sure T-Hawk would spout some "freedom" rhetoric ect. 

HOWEVER, people have to think back longer than a second (which they never do) to a simpler time WAY back in early 2020 when I had to try to explain statistics to a friend on why "yes in fact Covid is worse than the flu" (even though even I had no clue how bad it would eventually get).

Its like I predicted what T-Hawk would say...... and then he just ignored the origins....... I think I made a pretty good argument for why it turned political to begin with. I would like to think there are good lessons to look for in politics and how politicians act in general in there.

At this point we could go back in the same circle we've been in where we eventually agree governments implement laws and regulations to prevent deaths especially in cases like smoking and drunk driving where you are affecting other people and not just you. We've gone that route though and honestly I'm not sure why you still make this argument when we've gone over at least thrice. 

"Everything is fine" is just ludicrous to claim unless you care 0% about human life. If nothing else the healthcare system would never have survived a T-Hawk policy and I'm uncertain of it as is. Again this is an area where your decisions affect more than just you. 

Its also ludicrous to say there isn't anything to be done about it. I have no clue how people in the US can be so clueless to look at the rest of the world and specifically at countries where this isn't political. Look at the vaccination rates and deaths and realize wtf are doing here....... You can look at graphs and data of preventative measures vs hospitalizations and deaths and go "yes these are clearly related". Saying there is nothing to be done about it? Get out of your political ass and look around. 

Its such minor inconveniences you are getting so upset about. Such small sacrifices to save so many lives. Wearing a mask when you travel. Oh that is definitely not worth a life...... I'm with Charriu that I probably will continue to wear one when I feel sick even 10 years from now. I wear glasses and masks suck with them, but its something I will do to try to not get someone else sick. Its such a minor thing, but its amazing how selfish people can be. Mind you if we just had both political parties in the same book (let alone same page) the vaccination rate would be so much higher and we could get back to some semblance of normal.... But Republican's have travelled too far down that path to admit they are in any way wrong now. 

People don't like admitting they are wrong. People get really involved in politics. They forget politics is about power. Its why we have 49% of Americans who vote for the same party no matter what. Its just so sad to see such a stupid political issue grow and fester into such death. You realize it won't stop at Covid right T-Hawk? Just like a virus the misinformation and rhetoric will evolve and anti-vax stances will start spreading to diseases we've had virtually stamped out in the US. 

Eventually I think we will get back to a society that is sick of death. You read about civilization when death was everywhere. People jumped at spells and whatever hot "miracle cures" would be peddled. Its no wonder that when science actually started understanding and developing solutions for them that people who had far less access to knowledge that we do today did not feel like it was political at all and that everyone should be invested in stopping such preventable suffering. 

[T-hawk]

People are over this shit.

https://newspress.com/poll-voters-oppose...n-variant/

69% of Americans oppose new mandates or restrictions for Omicron. Even 54% of Democrats oppose it.

Sure, the work-from-home, society-hating, anxiety-riddled, laptop class who doesn't do anything besides sit online and consume media fear propaganda are still being noisy about it. But the people that exist out in the real world are over this shit.

By "everything is fine", I meant there is no discernable difference between restriction-heavy and free states. Take a list of cases or deaths per capita per state and remove the state names. You couldn't even tell from that which had more or less restrictions. Florida is right in the middle of the list and its numbers look no different than anywhere else despite being completely free for nearly a year.