[SPOILERS] Woden and ljubljana like boats

[ljubljana]

Back now and playing the turn.



What do you think? Suboptimal has a DoF with Russia, sadly, and Kaiser is their ally, so I think only Russia and me are eligible to vote on this. But my diplo favor is not going to do anything else useful for us, since I can't vote on any emergency called against you, and at least I would force them to spend a bit on defending themselves. Unfortunately the WC is sure to be called next turn either way, as Australia will surely call one against you.

I don't know what happens if I decline to call it. Do I get to save it and try again at some later time when I have more favor available? If so, perhaps that is the best move.

[ljubljana]

Turn 192 - Phoenicia

Well, I didn't want to hold the turn overnight, so I proposed the resolution. My reasoning was based on this, from the last emergency called against me:



Suboptimal was able to vote against the emergency despite being ineligible to declare war on me due to my alliance with Bruindane, who you can see was not allowed to vote. So Russia, who is allied with Kaiser and roland and has a DoF with suboptimal, would be alone on their side, versus the two of us and China, and it would only take a few votes from China to pass the emergency. That means Russia will need to dump a ton of favor into voting this down (at least 60 even with no Chinese support), and might still fail, while still making sure to pass the emergency they get to call against you. That seemed well worth 30 favor, especially since this was the only chance we will get in 15 turns with Australia set to call one against you this round, so I went for it.

...aaaand then I finally realized that "Military Aid Request" and "Military Emergency" are not, in fact, the same thing, and I actually just made everyone vote on useless SP bullshit 

But why was I not able to propose a real military emergency? I don't get it...I still have cities under Russian occupation. Could it be that, because Russia has not taken any of my cities since the last emergency against them ended, there is no active triggering event for the resolution and it therefore could not be proposed? Or perhaps the military emergency is on a hidden cooldown of some kind since the last one just ended? It is possible that, for one or both of these reasons, Australia will not be able to propose one against you, either. In that case, this move might look unintentionally brilliant to williams, who saved all his diplo favor for emergencies and is now about to get locked out of the WC for 15 turns. And that's with you about to take Illmatic on literally this turn, no less, which would surely re-enable an emergency proposal. But...no, when you read this, williams, I am in fact not brilliant but instead unbelievably stupid and borderline-illiterate   

And, um, my personal apologies to you, Woden, for the idiotic WC turn that is about to happen, even though it will accidentally be really good for us if it locks Russia out of an emergency against you during the upcoming battle. "Oops" does not even begin to cover the level of embarrassment that I feel about this fiasco... Please mock me mercilessly about this for the rest of my days, and any enterprising lurkers who might be reading this should feel quite free to do the same...

I sent you all the rest of my favor just in case it lets you propose a military emergency against Russia, or if you would like to have it for two more votes to defend from one that Australia might propose against you. If you don't think that will happen, though, feel free to reject that deal so the favor does not bleed away due to your negative income. You can also then ask me for a mercury (that deal lapsed on this turn) and all my gold for upgrades. I might also like one more niter to start a new frigate in Fort Lakton, if you can spare it.

And the other Major Topic of Discussion for this turn - something really weird is going on with my TRs...



Can you explain this crazy production I'm getting in Linear A? That is 36 hammers from incoming trade routes - what the fuck? The city is working 3 improved tiles, and it has...*checks notes*...58 food, 41.6 production, and that is 84 gold under the tooltip. Seems legit

I have a bad feeling that this resolution is badly bugged with Wisselbanken and is giving one or both of us +4 hammers and +4 food on all those TRs as well. My income is up some 45 GPT from last round, too, and it looks like I might be getting extra gold from your TRs to me instead of or in addition to the other way around, which is also not behaving as advertised. Or, at least, I can think of no other rational explanation for either these ridiculous numbers or the yields displayed on the telltale TR screen here:



Unless you can explain this somehow, it looks like a pretty major new bug to me. And I am curious to hear about whether you are getting bonus production in your cities with Wisselbanken TRs as well. But I am not really sure what needs to be done to account for this if so, since if this had been known to the players in advance then some votes would surely have been different... We should at least report this in the tech thread, I think, but should we propose a reload and rerun of the WC as well? I do not want to take advantage of bugged behavior but it seems like the cat is kind of out of the bag on the WC votes at this point, so maybe there is some better solution that involves me deleting caravels and deliberately wasting money every so often...

By contrast, my own routes look more normal and possibly un-bugged, although the gold income does still seem a bit high:



At any rate, this discussion reminded me to second your suggestion to boost up your Manhattan Project city. Unfortunately I am 2 TRs over my limit, so there is not much I can do unless we can push Russia's fleet back far enough for me to repair Cothons. But if your routes end, at least you can run TRs out of Thor to my cities for hopefully just +2 production from Wisselbanken. If you are getting +6 instead though, I am not sure what we should do as I do not want to be taking advantage of a bug to boost your cities...

Other stuff happened this turn too. Well...not really in Australia:



Rodeo at 114 wall health, which is unlikely to go down in a single turn. The Dreadnought is averaging 29 health per shot so far, so we are looking at roughly 87 damage from my three best ships, maybe another 20 from the 2-promoted fleet (firing at 10 less strength) if I put it on the pearls, and a small amount of damage from a single frigate if I feel bold enough to put it right next to the city, where the IC fleet is now. So it could happen, and you may want to leave the IC fleet tile open just in case, but most likely it will be just short. Another shot from the Dreadnought from across the cape should seal it, but I don't know if we have the time to gamble on another IC-free turn like that...

But in any case, even my single caravel is displayed as favored to finish off Illmatic, so barring some unforseen catastrophe (or roland moving the caravel fleet out of the city, which he might do) you should own your fourth original capital by next turn. That's pretty good, all things considered, right?

Unfortunately I did not remember to check if Australia got a tech this turn... I guess I could load the save again to check, but that does not really feel kosher by RB rules. Please correct me if that understanding is wrong, though.



With the quiet turn, I did some scouting in the north, and it looks very unlikely that there are any ships lurking here waiting to kill you. In that case, I am wondering if it would be better for me to move these ships up to add their support bonuses to my two fleet IC (soon to be 3 with a single Embolon IC coming out of Cuneiform in 2t). Let me know what you think.

Also, Izumrud is revolting to me in 2t. I am not sure if I should accept though, as the city will be without walls and Russia will immediately burn it down. Maybe what I should do is take suzereignty of Valletta from suboptimal (barely possible with 2 more envoys about to come in) and faith-buy Ancient Walls in there. That would at least slow them down and tempt them into burning a bunch of battleship shots on the city on what could be a crucial turn.

I also am going to finish Urbanization this turn and revolt to Conscription for another 50 gpt or so. It is scary to leave Grand Armee with Russia still having a bunch of Cossacks in the fog, but I do have a decent number of promoted P/S now and feel willing to risk a round of ship builds. That could easily bite me in the butt, of course, but in the worst case, I can switch back in 4t when Scorched Earth comes in.

I guess it's about time for me to make a builder in Linear A too to hook up the extra coal. I resisted doing that for a long time because I did not think I could keep it connected and didn't want to give Russia an extra pillage, but if I don't see another wave of Cossacks before Hieratic flips again it might be worth doing. But I do think there are probably 8-10 out there in the fog by now as Russia is still spending faith as quickly as it comes in, so maybe not... Alternatively, we may want to start reallocating forces to prepare for a major landing on your shores now that my core is pretty much pillaged to death.

[Woden]

I have a bad feeling that this resolution is badly bugged with Wisselbanken and is giving one or both of us +4 hammers and +4 food on all those TRs as well. My income is up some 45 GPT from last round, too, and it looks like I might be getting extra gold from your TRs to me instead of or in addition to the other way around, which is also not behaving as advertised. Or, at least, I can think of no other rational explanation for either these ridiculous numbers or the yields displayed on the telltale TR screen here:



Unless you can explain this somehow, it looks like a pretty major new bug to me. And I am curious to hear about whether you are getting bonus production in your cities with Wisselbanken TRs as well. But I am not really sure what needs to be done to account for this if so, since if this had been known to the players in advance then some votes would surely have been different... We should at least report this in the tech thread, I think, but should we propose a reload and rerun of the WC as well? I do not want to take advantage of bugged behavior but it seems like the cat is kind of out of the bag on the WC votes at this point, so maybe there is some better solution that involves me deleting caravels and deliberately wasting money every so often...

By contrast, my own routes look more normal and possibly un-bugged, although the gold income does still seem a bit high:

Democracy in Gathering Storm adds +4 food and +4 production to both parties for trade routes of allies. Not a bug. No need for reload. Would be really helpful getting the Manhattan Project done quicker but Fascism is so much better for war, I am not going to be in Democracy very long.

[Woden]

I will take Illmatic on my turn unless roland brings the caravel out to block me (not sure if he will if he thinks I will continue to pillage). As for your ships by our core, I think it will be best for you to scout the north, east of Runic. Not sure how my turn will go. If Russia kills my pillaging ironclad (why won't he), I am going to be basically blind as I don't want to leave another ironclad alone as a forward scout (maybe I do, IDK). I might have one sail east and then hide in the north, hoping he doesn't advance there. My fleet will retreat a few tiles and hold around Runic. If I finish Combined Arms, I will forgo retreating and just upgrade but if I don't, I think tucking my battleships behind Runic is going to be best.

One thing I forgot to mention last turn, if we don't see a bunch of new Cossacks on my turn, we will want you to vacate the campus at Cuneiform so my field cannon can take that position. I am not going to want to keep my field cannon where it is located as he is open to battleship fire. It might actually be too late and he might not be there next turn if Russia becomes aggressive. I am going to move him to the horses on my turn (if it is still open) and then move to the campus the following turn. Unless you think the support bonus on your frontline P&S is more important than having ranged support in the area. I could alternatively move the field cannon south to around Demotic to cover that flank. What do you think is better?

[ljubljana]

Oh! I guess I'm just dumb and illiterate again, that's an awesome bonus from Democracy! Imagine if we were both strong enough to be able to stack it for +10 hammers on all TRs... That actually could end up better than Fascism come Manhattan Project time if we have a major battle with Russia and end up with a milpower edge. And I do not think nukes will get the bonus production from Fascism, so it will definitely be better when both sides are making nukes in every city.

I actually am wondering if it would be worth trying to get the Democratic Legacy card. The War Department in particular seems potentially worth building - 20 health when killing an enemy unit could be pretty significant in the upcoming battle for keeping your front-line Destroyers healthy. The other two look like super inefficient SP garbage but that seems like a decent build.

Yeah, I can use caravels to replace your scouting IC, and I did leave one up there to your NE after my turn. It will be a bit strange as a Russian turn will take place in between my scouting and your movement, so he will have a chance to reposition to stay outside my vision radius. But it's better than nothing and doesn't require sacrificing a valuable unit. There might be a chance of Russia leaving your IC alive though as it probably looks like bait, and he may not have GWs in range to scout your fleet this turn.

I think vacating the Cuneiform campus is the best play for now, definitely worth giving up 2 support bonuses to keep the cannon alive. Then the horse will be a good position for one of the new P/S corps, which will be difficult to dislodge with multiple Cossack attacks thanks to the river and surrounding hill tiles.

edit: I am still concerned about the gold income from the TRs though. I do not think my GPT should have gone up at all last turn based on how the resolution was advertised. Can you think of any other reason I might be getting 4 gold from your routes to me?

[Woden]

I actually am wondering if it would be worth trying to get the Democratic Legacy card. The War Department in particular seems potentially worth building - 20 health when killing an enemy unit could be pretty significant in the upcoming battle for keeping your front-line Destroyers healthy. The other two look like super inefficient SP garbage but that seems like a decent build.

This might be worth delaying Fascism a few turns until I finish it. I will start the War Department on my turn. Not sure how long it will take but I amuse 10 turns. I think I still finish the civic and then switch when I finish the building. Then, I will get the option to slot it in one of the wild card slots along with the OL card.

Yeah, I can use caravels to replace your scouting IC, and I did leave one up there to your NE after my turn. It will be a bit strange as a Russian turn will take place in between my scouting and your movement, so he will have a chance to reposition to stay outside my vision radius. But it's better than nothing and doesn't require sacrificing a valuable unit. There might be a chance of Russia leaving your IC alive though as it probably looks like bait, and he may not have GWs in range to scout your fleet this turn.

Yah, I don't think having them scout in the northeast will be very useful. It would only give us information on where they were on your turn and, as you stated, they can move between our turns. Maybe just have them cover our back from privateers trying to sneak an attack in.

I think vacating the Cuneiform campus is the best play for now, definitely worth giving up 2 support bonuses to keep the cannon alive. Then the horse will be a good position for one of the new P/S corps, which will be difficult to dislodge with multiple Cossack attacks thanks to the river and surrounding hill tiles.

Sounds like a plan. I will plan on moving the field cannon to the campus. Then he will get +10 CS for being on a district.

edit: I am still concerned about the gold income from the TRs though. I do not think my GPT should have gone up at all last turn based on how the resolution was advertised. Can you think of any other reason I might be getting 4 gold from your routes to me?

Not sure, but maybe getting a civic in the modern era raises gold yields. It is really hard to tell because I swapped into Democracy right before the WC. I doubt it is a bug, just something we are not aware of yet. Even with the added food and production, I had to look it up. Maybe gold is a hidden benefit with Democracy.

Edit: Actually, maybe it is better to go for either Mobilization or Conservation to get a quicker/cheaper civic swap. Conservation is 5 turns (after next turn) for the boost and Mobilization could be 4 turns if I put the pillages into it. I think Totalitarianism is going to be 11 turns next turn so I would have to plan on some pillages going into it depending on how long the War Department takes. IDK, will have to see how everything looks on my turn.

[ljubljana]

Yeah, maybe I am being a bit unfair to the devs by being so quick to jump to the "it must be a bug" conclusion

I guess it is most likely related to either the resolution or to Democracy as both took place between my last two turns. Not sure if the gold from TRs was present before last turn, but my increased income (+45 gpt) is roughly consistent with getting 12 instances of +4 gold per TR. I guess we should wait and see if you are also getting the +4 gold on your turn. Maybe it just gave the gold boost to the wrong person or something, in which case I can just ship gold to you for roughly the same effect. But if we are both getting +4 gold on TRs it would be a bit more worrisome.

Regardless of whether it is Democracy or the resolution that is giving extra gold, it is an undocumented feature either way... Or maybe there is some other reason why I should get gold from your TRs to me that I don't understand, and I picked up 45 GPT from some other source last turn...?

edit: As for civic swaps, it probably depends on whether we think the battle with williams will take place before or after your fastest Fascism time. If you can get +5 combat strength up before you have to fight them, it could be worth skipping the War Department although it would slow our nuke time somewhat. But if you expect to fight him beforehand I can see going for Mobilization to try to save gold from buying a policy swap. Plus it is not like Armadas are useless, although I'd guess they are probably less impactful than fleets all else being equal.

[Woden]

edit: As for civic swaps, it probably depends on whether we think the battle with williams will take place before or after your fastest Fascism time. If you can get +5 combat strength up before you have to fight them, it could be worth skipping the War Department although it would slow our nuke time somewhat. But if you expect to fight him beforehand I can see going for Mobilization to try to save gold from buying a policy swap. Plus it is not like Armadas are useless, although I'd guess they are probably less impactful than fleets all else being equal.

I think the main attack will go on without reaching Fascism regardless of the path I take. I don't think we wait once I upgrade destroyers. I don't want to give him a chance to better his position if we wait. The main question is really going to be if we think the game will end after the next major battle or is it going to go on. I think it is going to be worth it to delay Fascism for a few turns to get a really helpful policy card, especially since I don't see switching where my trade routes go.

[ljubljana]

Well, we will also have to see what kinds of tactical opportunities he is kind enough to give you, I guess. I am not sure you will be able to get a first strike, and you are probably a bit outnumbered in terms of modern ships after his latest upgrade splurge, although we will know a bit better once we see how much coal he is bleeding next turn. I actually think a stalemate is likely to develop in which your fleet strengths are sufficiently close that whoever gets the first strike will be the winner, and neither of you can move ships up without conceding the first strike to the other. That would be an okay outcome for us too, though, as it means Russia would not be able to easily eat the rest of my cities.

FWIW, I double-checked his oil tile and it still has just a farm on it, and I can see your oil wells even though I can't see the oil itself. So I am pretty sure he did not do any sub upgrades last turn and they were all coal units...

As for whether the game is going to go on, sadly I think it probably is If one of you is decisively defeated then perhaps they will concede, but I don't really see that happening with your similar fleet strengths unless one side moves their fleet up too aggressively and concedes a big first strike on their battleships. You will have similar nuke timings as well if you both start the Manhattan Project in roughly 8t. You will likely be able to make nukes faster than williams as you should have more uranium, but perhaps there will be another cluster of 3 uranium tiles just outside one of his cities to even things up again...

Thor is not also the War Academy city, right? If we have to delay the MP that is one reason this may not be worth it.

[Woden]

(W)Odin has the Government Plaza. At 440 production, it might take 10 or 11 turns to complete, depending on happiness. I don't think I have any resources to chop except the jungle on the pillaged bananas but that is coastal and the builder will be valuable to capture with a privateer. I can probably repair the niter.

Russia best play next will be to forgo your cities and go south to hit (W)Odin with his battleships and keep some distance from my fleet. If he runs south to cause as much damage as possible, I am not sure if I can catch him. I doubt he has enough force to take cities in 1 turn but maybe. Any delay will let me catch him and upgrading a fleet destroyer will also help bring my cities above 100 DS. If he does take W(O)din, he won't be able to hold it but my GP will go bye, bye. The next few turns will be crucial for him. If he choses to go after my fleet, it is good for us. If he choses to go after W(O)din, that could be a setback. I don't think it is game ending, but no way I can get the War Department before Fascism. On the bright side, if he does do that, you can probably start rebuilding.