American Politics Discussion Thread

[Charriu]

When they start restricting rights which do not contribute to fighting the pandemic. The restrictions in the article sound reasonable and of course for most people there is an easy way to get rid of those restrictions. Just get vaccinated.

For comparison the inmates of concentration camps did not have a way to get out of the camps.

But I think we do no longer need to discuss this. It's clear that we have fundamentally different opinions on this topic and we won't change those. So why should we waste both of our time for this.

[darrelljs]

Based on the South Africa case/death data, Omnicron is the end of the pandemic. It will just take a while for that to sink in.

Darrell

[Mjmd]

T-Hawk your arguing slippery slope fallacy for the US WHILE you are using an entirely different country for the argument!!! We can't even agree to treat the unvaccinated like smokers in the US. IE an unhealthy decision that most seriously affects you, but also affects other not smokers, but to a less degree. I also would like to continue to emphasize how much I hate that somehow the liberty argument has become entangled with vaccine misinformation. Imagine if we had a political party saying smoking was healthy for you while one said it wasn't. You can argue we should let people smoke, but also argue that we should have information on the cartons saying "this is dangerous".

On a serious note I think there is a fascinating political book on the ways different countries handled and how it evolved politically in each one. Compare and contrast ect.

@Darrell: I've seem some articles that yes Omicron will make it endemic instead. I still predict a couple months of pain ahead.

[T-hawk]

When they start restricting rights which do not contribute to fighting the pandemic. The restrictions in the article sound reasonable and of course for most people there is an easy way to get rid of those restrictions. Just get vaccinated.

For comparison the inmates of concentration camps did not have a way to get out of the camps.

But I think we do no longer need to discuss this. It's clear that we have fundamentally different opinions on this topic and we won't change those. So why should we waste both of our time for this.

No, I'm going to reiterate the point until you realize that your position constitutes perpetual and unsustainable abuse of human rights. Imprisoning people will *always* have *some* marginal effect on disease spread. As long as you follow the media-created fear propaganda that disease spread overrides every other consideration of human rights, you are never going to get out of the hole you've crammed your perception into.

there is an easy way to get rid of those restrictions. Just get vaccinated.

Do you believe that bunk? What has the rest of the world demonstrated? That complying with restrictions doesn't give you freedom, it just gets you more restrictions. Complying with masks didn't end anything, it just got vaccine passports. Complying with vaccine passports didn't end anything, it just got booster passports.

You cannot end authoritarianism by complying with it. You don't see this because you support medical tyranny as long as it lets you delude yourself into feeling safer.

Based on the South Africa case/death data, Omnicron is the end of the pandemic. It will just take a while for that to sink in.

I'm cautiously optimistic that Omicron will be the end of the big waves - but then again, we thought that on the downside of the delta wave too.

But the problem is that it's never going to zero and thus the hysteria will never end. It's always going to circulate - reinfections are common enough that it's always going to behave and persist like cold viruses. The psychosis only stops when we stop obsessively testing healthy people - but the media climate of fear will never permit that.

We're going to be at Covid Alert Level Critical just as long as we're going to be at Terror Alert Level Orange, unless people actively demand to end this garbage.

I also would like to continue to emphasize how much I hate that somehow the liberty argument has become entangled with vaccine misinformation.

What are you talking about? You always have liberty to refuse a medical procedure of forcibly modifying your own body. That has nothing to do with any information about any vaccines.

[Charriu]

When they start restricting rights which do not contribute to fighting the pandemic. The restrictions in the article sound reasonable and of course for most people there is an easy way to get rid of those restrictions. Just get vaccinated.

For comparison the inmates of concentration camps did not have a way to get out of the camps.

But I think we do no longer need to discuss this. It's clear that we have fundamentally different opinions on this topic and we won't change those. So why should we waste both of our time for this.

No, I'm going to reiterate the point until you realize that your position constitutes perpetual and unsustainable abuse of human rights.  Imprisoning people will *always* have *some* marginal effect on disease spread.  As long as you follow the media-created fear propaganda that disease spread overrides every other consideration of human rights, you are never going to get out of the hole you've crammed your perception into.

there is an easy way to get rid of those restrictions. Just get vaccinated.

Do you believe that bunk?  What has the rest of the world demonstrated?  That complying with restrictions doesn't give you freedom, it just gets you more restrictions.  Complying with masks didn't end anything, it just got vaccine passports.  Complying with vaccine passports didn't end anything, it just got booster passports.

You cannot end authoritarianism by complying with it.  You don't see this because you support medical tyranny as long as it lets you delude yourself into feeling safer.

These are fears.  You're arguing out fear and paranoia that some government will enslave you.

[darrelljs]

It's always going to circulate - reinfections are common enough that it's always going to behave and persist like cold viruses.

Apparently 20-40% of common cold cases are older corona viruses.

Darrell

[T-hawk]

These are fears.  You're arguing out fear and paranoia that some government will enslave you.

I'm arguing out of the empirically demonstrated reality that in no case does complying with restrictions end restrictions, it only gets you more.

[Bobchillingworth]

Apparently 20-40% of common cold cases are older corona viruses.

Darrell

Indeed, my understanding is the "Spanish Flu" persists to this day, as a substantially less dangerous variant of the common cold. I actually share T-Hawk's cautious optimism regarding Omicron being the last of the major waves, though I disagree with everything else he has written, and specifically hope that it's the last wave to cause mass fatalities & threaten to overwhelm U.S. healthcare systems.

[Mjmd]

[quote pid="803165" dateline="1641321109"]
I also would like to continue to emphasize how much I hate that somehow the liberty argument has become entangled with vaccine misinformation.

What are you talking about?  You always have liberty to refuse a medical procedure of forcibly modifying your own body.  That has nothing to do with any information about any vaccines.
[/quote]


So I want everyone to think WAY back to before Covid. I know it seems like a long time. The anti vaxx movement was growing a little. You heard stories of outbreaks of diseases we had essentially eliminated from the US start popping up, but it wasn't big yet. People had the choice not to, but it wasn't' really causing a big big issue because both the medical information, media, and politicians were all on the same page and the vast portion of population was voluntarily doing it (there were also school mandates for some of them that somehow hadn't led to concentration camps yet...... anyways) . Now I think most people attribute this pre covid increase in anti vaxx movement to the internet and people starting to have access to "questionable" information and sharing it. Try to remember how you thought of anti vaxxers 3 years ago? The descriptor "miss informed" is probably the nicest. 

Now do I think with the internet being what it is and people being what they are when things change, that maybe the anti vaxx movement would have gotten worse naturally. 100% yes. You can see this in other 1st world countries vaccination rates. It would be interesting for instance to compare the rate of adpption of the Polio vaccine to this one in other countries where Covid wasn't as political. 

But do I also bang my head   that we have Republicans questioning the vaccine effectiveness and right wing media doing the same. US is about 10% behind other 1st world countries and I think you can pretty fairly blame that on right wing media and politicians.

[Bobchillingworth]

I think you're wasting your time with rational arguments, Mjmd; you're playing an endless game of whack-a-mole with paranoid conspiracy theorists.