A new mod enters the ring - Introducing "Close to Home"

[Mjmd]

2) each city gets +1f, +1H, +1g. Nothing really improves the actual city tile yields. Maybe even +2 for all? Kind of like this one the best of my 3.

I already thought about that myself there are two problems though.

1. We are all aware of the "cities on plains hill" mechanic (by the way is there any agreed name for that mechanic?). All bonuses for the city have to be considered with that mechanic. So for example if we increase the city tile by +1 hammer most cities would get that except for cities on a plains hill. In short the bonus must be high enough to pass that mechanic. Which leads nicely into...
2. Just +1f, +1h, +1c feels a bit to low to meaningful. Main problem here is that there is no real way to scale the bonus as you can always only have 1 city tile. Increasing that bonus to high also runs into the infinite city sprawl territory.

1) I'm assuming this is a modding limitation? Why not just add whatever is decided to existing yield? You could add the bonus to granary as a work around if it is a limitation.
2) Make it +2 for all? (or like +1f, +3h, +3g). Based on PB59 I am going to 100% say there are more powerful strategies involving city sprawl, food corps, and slavery. However along with no upkeep and increase cottage growth it might at least make it a consideration situation specific.

[Charriu]

Well that is the whole point why I'm looking for something new for Emancipation. I wanted to give back the +10% hammers to State Property for the following reasons

- Decreasing synergy between hammer corps and Emancipation (hammer corps are strong enough)
- Making State Property better to justify using it with all corps in play.
- Reducing changelog size

But above you wrote that you feel that 10% is irrelevant, so does the number need to be increased as well?

That was meant in comparison to the other civics in the labor column. On State property it is worth more, because the other civics in economy have no hammer bonus and because state property also improves other hammer improvements.

2) each city gets +1f, +1H, +1g. Nothing really improves the actual city tile yields. Maybe even +2 for all? Kind of like this one the best of my 3.

I already thought about that myself there are two problems though.

1. We are all aware of the "cities on plains hill" mechanic (by the way is there any agreed name for that mechanic?). All bonuses for the city have to be considered with that mechanic. So for example if we increase the city tile by +1 hammer most cities would get that except for cities on a plains hill. In short the bonus must be high enough to pass that mechanic. Which leads nicely into...
2. Just +1f, +1h, +1c feels a bit to low to meaningful. Main problem here is that there is no real way to scale the bonus as you can always only have 1 city tile. Increasing that bonus to high also runs into the infinite city sprawl territory.

1) I'm assuming this is a modding limitation? Why not just add whatever is decided to existing yield? You could add the bonus to granary as a work around if it is a limitation.
2) Make it +2 for all? (or like +1f, +3h, +3g). Based on PB59 I am going to 100% say there are more powerful strategies involving city sprawl, food corps, and slavery. However along with no upkeep and increase cottage growth it might at least make it a consideration situation specific.

This is not strictly a modding limitation. Rather by adding just to the existing yield it may become inconsistent to the whole "cities on plains hill" mechanic. But this is a smaller issue overall.

[Ginger()]

Well State Property doesn't see much use because the tech is a dead end if you don't reach it first for the Spy and Kremlin. Those who are able to reach Communism first are usually those who can also pick up Corporations, which are so totally busted that I'm honestly surprised they still in the game at all in mods, I guess they serve as a coup de grace letting a leader come out as clear winner without prolonging the game?
However OTOH, without corporations State Property is a no-brainer pick every game, at least it plays out that way in singleplayer. I suspect the Gaia world maps that are the norm sort of devalue the impressive food buffs SP gives.
I think tossing around the 10% bonus is counting peanuts in this era. Powered factories and forges already give 175% to production, 200% producing buildings if running Org Religion, 200% producing military with police state. Effectively that's a 5% increase in total production, which would in most cities be much better served by Caste or Serfdom hammers.
I think the easiest solution to making it better is to give Towns 1H like US. This does not lead to imaginative civic combos, just cements the town-fiesta of US, FS, Emanci, but it would give players more pause on ignoring Democracy, and make the choice more difficult.
If it does end up buffing specialists, I'd suggest +2H to distinguish it just a little from Representation

[Charriu]

As far as I am concerned I see the following 4 good ideas for Emancipation now:

+X hammers per happy pop
+3 gold per specialist
extra yields for city tile
+2 hammer per specialist

I would like to try the "hammers per happy pop", but first why I don't want to use the others:

- extra yields for city tile: This has a very nice touch, but unfortunately unlike other improvements you are rather limited in the ability to place "city tiles" on the map or rather more limited as with other improvements. Therefore I believe the bonus won't scale as good as others.
- +3 gold per specialist: I really like this as I am more and more a fan of the specialist economy. But I think this would be best with other civics. Emancipation already has a commerce/gold related bonus in the improvement upgrade speed and it isn't fully in theme with the other labor civics
- +2 hammer per specialist: This certainly falls into the "thematic with labor civics" criteria. The only reason I decided against it is, because it's more specialist and I like the more generalist bonus of "hammers per happy cap" more right now.

I plan to do the following for now:

+0.2 hammers per happy pop (Rounded up)

With that in mind a city would produce the following extra base hammers:

1+ pop = +1 hammer
6+ pop = +2 hammer
11+ pop = +3 hammer
16+ pop = +4 hammer
21+ pop = +5 hammer
...

Depending on the map this may be a bit stronger then the hammer bonuses from Serfdom and Caste.

[Tarkeel]

In my mind Emancipation civic is linked with "catching up" theme, so I'd prefer a change that was better for smaller cities, falling off as it grows. Something along the line of +1 hammer per excess health?

[Ginger()]

Some random thoughts for the mod unrelated to Emancipation:
If you're looking for something that buffs IND, (not suggesting that it needs a buff, it seems solidly middle of the pack), the easiest thing to do would be give it the old EXP worker bonus, although that probably shoots it too far ahead.
I also had an idea to help nudge the balance of the mysticism civs. What would you guys think about giving India back the OG fast worker and then swapping the starting techs of Arabia/India? Giving India Mys/Wheel and an OP UU makes it similar to Byzantium's current state, and Arabia always struck me as having interesting uniques but not as deserving of the tech handicap as the Cataphracts are.

[Rusten]

There's been so many suggestions about the happiness thing that I don't know what the current mechanic you're suggesting is; but please make sure the hammer bonus is not usable with a near infinite mechanic like HR. Stacking hammers in a single city is very strong to build national and world wonders. You can't just look at empire-wide output for comparison.

And I find it odd that you're making this many changes to the mod/game, yet you still refuse to fix the "broken" early game of having pastures on AH and farms on agriculture. I think your initial reason was to not confuse new players, but how is a minor change like that more confusing than the recent changes/suggestions to the mod?

[civac2]

None of these discussed changes were actually implemented.

[Amicalola]

I quite like Ginger's proposal for India/Arabia. I can't imagine ever picking Arabia right now, and no one else seems to like it either. So it would be a nice buff for that, and make India more fitting.

The IND buff seems fine, but I prefer the National Wonder or Levee suggestions (or both). I also think that IND is not in dire need of a buff though, it has performed decently so far. If we do buff it, I would prefer a change that does not devalue it even more with other IND players (i.e. a bonus that all IND players can take advantage of).

I would be fine with the pasture/camp change, although I'm not sure that's it's such a huge deal. Couldn't deer just be used by the mapmaker as a starting food instead of livestock, if we're really concerned? Probably I am missing something, feel free to explain it to me.

[civac2]

I like everything in the new patch except the Emancipation hammers.

The pasture thing is not much of an issue on hand-made maps. It does reduce variety a bit.