[59] Miguelito and Rusten move stacks to berimbau rythms

[Miguelito]

So.
- for us to win we need Amica's help with Picc. That would work a lot better with enforced peace between us.
- Amica needs to stop Picc together with us and to burn or cap before our own spaceship gets to AC. They may have concluded that they need to conquer Lazteuq (and Charriu) immediately in order to have a shot at that goal)
- Amica conquering Laz would make everything a lot harder but not necessarily impossible. We can also vulture a bit off Persia to limit their advance.

You see, my fear is that Amica concludes that they can't win if we fight them in Persia, and then cancels the commitment against Mali or goes halfheartedly. Otoh there are a few very good reasons against peace:
- it allows them an undisturbed, massive buildup pretty close to our core
- I told Charriu and Lazteuq that we'd be supporting them, and I could not fault them at all if they tilted and sent everything against us if we betrayed them.
- peace would allow Amica to sail a huge fleet right into our core while we'd have to watch, and then after ten turns whoever gets the first half of the timer wins.

Further advantages of peace:
- we might restore the resource trades, for 1000hpt, duh.
- we'd have enough time to build SDI, which would leave Amica with few options for using nukes against us (I have not seen subs of his)


So as always when I draw a red line, I now feel the urge to do a backflip right over it. I think n if Charriu peaces out I'll follow him; otherwise I guess I'll stay honourable for now though.

Rusten, are you around? Do you have an opinion on this?

[klops]

I notice that Amica is getting a lot more views and also replies, so I'm wondering what they're doing better over there

Oh, he just asks a bunch of noob questions that are easy and quick to answer...  

BUt seriously, this is one of the best games for visitors to lurk and I enjoy it very much.
Not only the insane finish you're all preparing, even more so the different point of views that several players still share in detail. I for one couldn't even play a turn with such a vast amount of cities and troops in two days including complicated turn-splits... leave alone reporting.
I am thankful to all who decide to write a few words in their valuable free time.
fantastic read!

Personally, I don't have questions or wishes because you just covered everything

[Miguelito]

turn 239 - 9 turns left

we captured Spiro and made a mobile advance on Blaupunkt:


He has 18 Modern Armour, 29 infantry, 14 artillery and 7 cannon in range. This includes the units annotated in the sign on Kangaba, and those that apparently fought Amica's earlier landing, which were moved to Niani, and thus have not had a chance to heal (not in this screenshot, but see post #667). I actually did a Vodka sim for the first time in this game, which told me that our stack should survive, if with heavy losses. However I simmed without promotion (where he should probably do better than us), and also nearly all of his units are wounded from the previous fight against Amica and rather intense bombing of Kangaba, so the sim has rather little meaning. It may have been an error to drop all the one movers next to Spiro last turn, as they could have helped to catch collateral in this stack if anything. I could have dropped off more MechInfs instead, which could participate in both operations. 
There are an additional 5 MechInfs 2SW of Goblin, which can not be reached by the Niani stack.
Anyways I highly doubt that he will go in; even if he badly batters the stack it will commit his entire army, and he has to guard his rear against Amica, or so I hope. Basically I expect him to play it that way until he wins: always keeping the artillery in range so as to impede a too fast approach on multiple fronts, but retreating everytime the big stack is in range, rinse and repeat. Ultimately that will allow him to concentrate his forces in a final capital, maxing the challenge for us to go in. It is really up in the air whether we'll make it, and much depends on Amica of course. Biting my nails over this turn nevertheless .

Spiro is a very nice airfield:



As you might have seen I also conquered Silent with it's super shrine and Ethanol HQ. I could not bring myself to raze it:


It's defended by two MechInfs, and Picc can definitely take it back, but that again might cost him a unit or two. If anything we destroyed the Wall Street (and Grocer) here, so it will hit his economy significantly either way.
Speaking of, he's down to saving <1000gpt:



Oh and not really pictured, but his fleet is going for a breakout through the northern branch of the inner sea, and we might have trouble containing that. Interesting .

As mentioned, Ichabod declared on Picc, took Wounded Knee and sent a tank stack on Poverty Point, which he'll take before civac gets there (but they might fight over it yet). I try to motivate him to attack Zaria:


Also sent an offer in the same vein regarding Stony Lake. Pretty sure there's nothing on those galleons; the infantry from Poverty Point clearly all went to Zangaba.

In the east I skirmished with Amica:


Those were some horrible rolls. All of the lost battles were <59%, save the one against the tank which had like 38%. The last one lost had over 80. Luckily it doesn't matter too much here, for now. I offered a cease fire, to at least reenable communications. They can take back the city without issue, with Laz having played already. But they may also conclude that it isn't worth it, for now at least.

Amica took rocketry.


I'm unsure what our next tech should be. Candidates are Biology (farms, Spaceship line), Advanced Flight (however that gives it to Picc through the Internet), or Laser (SDI).
It also ocurred to me that I may want to build the Space Elevator . The bonus is really not great, but after all what matters about the Spaceship is the final burst, as Picc demonstrated, and we already have the tech. I think Angola can't due to the latitude however.



Finally, thanks guys for the kind words, it is great to know that the reports are appreciated. Sorry for occasionally seeking validation this way. On the conversations:

I can't confidently speak to the Spiro culture question, but for SAM infantry counters, note that ground units can only intercept one time per turn, unlike Fighters, so you can still bomb down a stack with some more investment.

In fact I have moved to producing designated suicide fighters whose purpose it is to throw themselves into the SAMs every turn. Costs up to 6 fighters per turn (currently), which is not nothing, but the effects of the bombers when they get through are also quite nice . I also came to realize that SAMs of our own could be quite useful against Amica if we keep fighting in Persia (well we will, sooner or later).

First, if you’re worried about Pic moving his capital like you mentioned, can you get EP city investigate on him? So in ten turns either Pic wins or its game on, what’s your current tech situation and ETA for completing a space ship of your own? What do you estimate your chances are of successfully razing Pic’s Capital? Or perhaps a better question, what points of failure do you identify in your attack, and as a corollary, to what extent do you rely on your allies in this dogpile?

City investigation could be achieved yes (his ability to fight back is limited with his economy steadily collapsing), but it would be very costly, on the order of 6.6k EP last time I checked. And I have plans for the gold and beakers.

I have not really done an ETA for a spaceship. I also think we may be better advised to take some military techs like Advanced Flight or Laser first even though those don't unlock spaceship parts. We lack, off the top of my head, Biology, Medicine, Genetics, Superconducters (got like 2/3), Wire Optics, Fusion, Ecology. How long that takes is very much a function of how much production can be commited to Research builds. We need units to defend against Amica, otoh the faster we advance the lesser time we need to defend. So that balance is a very tricky question, but I probably lean in favour of units. I am still rather convinced that if left undisturbed our spaceship builds faster than Amica's.
As I said, the chances for stopping pick are quite uncertain. It depends a lot on what Amica does and how much they send, and whether Picc moves the cap again. Also I havd mentioned before that Piccadilly is a lot more experienced in the lategame than either Amica or myself, and he has done some moves already which I had not expected, so maybe there will be more of that.

This is a mechanic question for savvy lurkers: If Spiro has 4th ring borders, will it control the tile of the stack even after Picc loses all of the mainland cities?

Yes:  If a city has popped borders to a given ring, it controls all the tiles within that ring where its owner has a cultural majority (including all of the culture its owner has put onto that tile in the course of the game) - even if the city and tile are on different landmasses with 2+ tiles in between them.  A city can never add any culture to a tile outside the "culture range" of its landmass (i.e. outside of tiles in the virtual BFCs of imaginary cities placed on every tile on its landmass, including peaks) - but if the culture is already there, that city still controls the tiles until someone else pours enough culture onto them to overcome the tiles' cultural history.

Thanks. This is about what I figured after the WB tests, but it#s very good to have it confirmed by an authority . It probably means that we can't use the Spiro canal and have to build another (so we'll have to airlift in workers, and forts are quite pricey in terms of worker turns)

[klops]

almost offtopic: I noticed the usage of "they" and "them" in regard of Amica... is it an account of two people or what do I miss here?

[Kaiser]

Amica is a a single person and playing his monster of a CIV alone as far as i know

[Cyneheard]

almost offtopic: I noticed the usage of "they" and "them" in regard of Amica... is it an account of two people or what do I miss here?

Standard practice when you don't know the gender of the person you're talking about?

[klops]

uh, really? probably gender related? Interesting, never noticed this before but I don't read that much english nowadays. 10 years are probably a full generation in language.
Sounds wierd at first but could work. you never stop learning...

[Miguelito]

turn 240 - 8 left 



Yeah, no. Or is he warning me that civac will attack in five turns? If so, we're likely toast and not too much can be done about it (well, save for what I always say, nukey nukes ). Ichabod also asked for 1000 gold, but we really need it for ourselves. He got 3 nice cities almost for free so far, isn't that something.
My hope is that there will be war between civac and Ichabod over former Cornflakesland. Ideally of course Ichabod would ravage Picc's cities on that continent's inner sea, but I'm not holding my breath. I sent fish-fish to civac to hopefully get a positive signal.



Hm, I'm warming up to the idea, but not quite there yet. Tbh I'm a bit afraid of what Charriu would do.

Instead we took his last remaining mainland conquest from Lazteuq:


The other one 3S was liberated to Lazteuq by us, then razed by Amica before Laz could do anything . See that upgrade button? That's a bargain! I took it. Thinking of it, I'm surprised that Picc has not been doing the same more often, he could easily neutralize all of our bombers.
This time all fights were won, balancing the awful luck last turn. If anything, this little war is providing some GG points, which in the west have been rare yet as Picc keeps avoiding battle.

There, we razed a city defended by a skirmisher.



Piccadilly keeps pulling back and concentrating his troops while cash upgrading (all tanks and cannons so far. Catapults next? The last few skirmishers? Or the frigates?)





This turn I'm offering him a chance to strike:


Yes, that is our stacks split, and the main one on flatland, due to the raze and no time to regroup properly. He will hardly get a better opportunity, but again, he would need to commit all of his army, and I think he can't really afford that. Vodka says we should survive, badly battered (simmed with unpromoted / full HP units) His stacks are at least reasonably bombarded, so I would hope that that result can hold up.
(The stack listed in the upper left corner sits in Niani, on the isthmus to his original core, in range of our stacks via railroad)

I also recaptured Silent. Last turn I had left two MechInfs there, which were promptly picked up by Modern Armours. This time I airlifted in a meeker defense:


Not sure why I did that. You see the time on the clock.

Those nasty MAs however did not get away with it:


One I picked off in Bilma with guided missiles I misplayed this - both the MA and the skirm should have been hit with planes first. But at least I did have just enough missiles on hand. Fun story, the skirmisher after the first hit was still defending at 51HP, but at 50 after I threw the fighter at him the MA was on top and met his fate.
The other MA got busted by the selected tank, which was deleted afterwards.

Back home, this will be the last 1-turned MA for a while it seems:



You see, losing Amica's resource trades had us take a slight hit in MfG


It is at its worst right now. I offered trades to Cairo for 5gpt each, up from the former 3gpt. Which he took, and then proceeded to cancel the old 3gpt ones, without bothering to offer something new. I am now trying to get all of his for 5gpt. I would assume we are natural allies, given the behemoth of Amica whom he has to share a continent with?
Everybody but Cairo is already trading us all their resources (Charriu, Lazteuq; it isn't much), has spread Mining themselves (civac, Ichabod, Dulland) or is at war with us (Amica, Piccadilly).



And then it hit me, after finishing the turn, near 2am:

RefSteel
[quote pid="804342" dateline="1643149772"]

This is a mechanic question for savvy lurkers: If Spiro has 4th ring borders, will it control the tile of the stack even after Picc loses all of the mainland cities?

Yes:  If a city has popped borders to a given ring, it controls all the tiles within that ring where its owner has a cultural majority (including all of the culture its owner has put onto that tile in the course of the game) - even if the city and tile are on different landmasses with 2+ tiles in between them.  A city can never add any culture to a tile outside the "culture range" of its landmass (i.e. outside of tiles in the virtual BFCs of imaginary cities placed on every tile on its landmass, including peaks) - but if the culture is already there, that city still controls the tiles until someone else pours enough culture onto them to overcome the tiles' cultural history.

Thanks. This is about what I figured after the WB tests, but it#s very good to have it confirmed by an authority . It probably means that we can't use the Spiro canal and have to build another (so we'll have to airlift in workers, and forts are quite pricey in terms of worker turns)

[/quote]

Of course Ref's explanation is flawless, but I had not looked close enough:


My plan was to resettle 1S of the razed Blaupunkt, then put a fort W of there and have a new canal. In fact I lifted in 4 workers this turn, instead of reinforcements. However this runs into the same problem as the canal by Spiro: Stony Lake controls that tile with its 4th ring borders, and there is nothing we can do about it . This is all Cornflakes' fault for planting that city ON the wine, like a madman! (Cornflakes, if you're reading, was that actually the purpose of that plant, to block any attempt from an invader to get a canal?

You may have seen that Picc already changed his capital another time, and without doubt he will do so again. Without that canal, we can never get to the border region with Dulland in time, much less Stony Lake itself (the northern isthmus is heavily defended, and we'd need to kill at least 3 cities before making it viable.

So, in our noble quest of *checks notes* stopping the Mali from advancing the human race and pioneering peaceful interstellar travel, regrettably we have to step to the last resort:

almost offtopic: I noticed the usage of "they" and "them" in regard of Amica... is it an account of two people or what do I miss here?

As the grammatics have already been clarified - I admit that normally I'm going with a prejudice of Civ 4 grognard = guy (which is of course wrong to do, but has yet to prove false whenever somebody reveals that personal information. And honestly as a foreign speaker I have to pay a whole lot of attention to write in "they", as it doesn't feel quite natural to me). But with that forum alias, and considering some forum posts I am unsure (tbh it would be perfectly natural to assume that they're a lady, but then again, Civ 4 grognard ).




I just played turn 241. report to follow, but for a starter:


AmiCaLoLa yOu grEEdy *#!ß&§!!1!
I was growing rather confident to pull this (stopping Picc) off. Now it seems like a longshot. And Amica has to know that! I understand that me not letting him eat Lazteuq and Charriu unmolested is annoying for them, but Amica guess what, this way the game is just over in 7 turns

I will try to do what I can, anyways, and if I make it Amica can pat their back. I just hope it is not meant in order to get out of the game due to exhaustion.

Lurkers, there is another important issue: I am pretty certain that Picc's economy at 14 cities is not capable of sustaining the 1500gpt payment anymore, and I still hope to further reduce his income . In fact he is at 0gpt and apparently not researching. He has about 4.4k in the bank. I believe when he runs out Amica will still be receiving the gold, even though Picc would not be generating it any longer. At Civforum this has been discussed as the money printing bug. If that happens I'd certainly cry foul. I don't know if that was the subject of Amica's and Picc's questions to lurkers and your discussion over the last couple days, but I think we need a ruling regarding:

• what happens when he's out of money and unable to pay for his costs
  
• Is Picc allowed to spend the money he has in the bank, even if that accelerates his bankrupcy (and accordingly aggravates the effects of the bug)?
  

Especially regarding the second question, I will post in the tech thread that I am asking for a ruling, and will ask Piccadilly not to play before it's out.

[Cornflakes]

what happens when he's out of money and unable to pay for his costs
Is Picc allowed to spend the money he has in the bank, even if that accelerates his bankrupcy (and accordingly aggravates the effects of the bug)?

This was indeed discussed over the last couple days. Ultimately it was decided:
- when Picc is out of money he will enter strike
- Picc is allowed to spend the money he has in the bank

Details of the discussion can be found in the lurker thread after the game.

[Cornflakes]

Also I didn’t settle that city to prevent a canal with its culture. I wasn’t aware that culture could control the 3rd ring until now.