American Politics Discussion Thread

[Charriu]

I think more people should listen to what Kenya said to this.

[Ginger()]

The Kenyan speech is very based. This irredentism is purely an arbitrary game of how far back do you want to draw the line
https://twitter.com/MatasMaldeikis/statu...2023983109
Which is why I love this tweet so much. I posted it here before but I thought it was worth it again given that we’re still for some reason talking about “historic nationality” and “rightful clay”

[BING_XI_LAO]

I for one am done with Bing in this thread. War is not to be taken this lightly.

It's possible that the Russian intervention will actually reduce the amount of military actions being undertaken on the contact line. 
I'll have to eat shit if that prediction turns out wrong though lol.

[Jowy]

Deleting these politics threads wouldn't be a terrible idea.

[BING_XI_LAO]

Deleting these politics threads wouldn't be a terrible idea.

As someone who hates liberalism I find it very encouraging that Western liberals can't cope with free debate. Clearly the ideology is collapsing from its internal contradictions.

Every time a liberal gives up on arguing, Putin annexes another village!

And deleting the thread would be a nice complement to Westerners fleeing pathetically from Afghanistan and from the Kiev embassies as their corrupt vassal states collapse around them. Anyhow I really should give this thread a rest, I must be like 50% of the posts for the past few pages.

[Jowy]

It is best to deplatform those advocating for values that have absolutely no place in civil society. I agree with the others who stated that you shouldn't be tolerant to values like nazism, racism, advocating violence etc.

[T-hawk]

This is what happened in many european countries in the 1920s and 1930s. They were tolerant towards enemies of democracy (facist, communists etc.). In the end that tolerance helped bring down democracy and with that the freedoms and tolerance it should provide. This is not a critic, I'm just curious. How would you have dealt with them in that time period?

What happens when the democracy is the fascism? Hitler was democratically elected, of course.

What happens when a democratic majority votes to exterminate the Jews, or the dissenters, or the unvaccinated, or whatever other subset?

We discussed this a while ago upthread. The best answer we've got is a strong constitution and court system to protect the rights of that minority. Every time you seek to destroy those rights when you're on the popular side, you're destroying those rights that you're going to need for the time when you find yourself on the unpopular side.

[Ginger()]

I for one am done with Bing in this thread. War is not to be taken this lightly.

It's possible that the Russian intervention will actually reduce the amount of military actions being undertaken on the contact line. 
I'll have to eat shit if that prediction turns out wrong though lol.

This has to be a joke or trolling, right?
To read this after 8 years of Russian funding and backing for the separatists and consistent attempts to undermine the stability of the Ukrainian government is truly beyond all parody. You speak of internal ideological contradictions, but then say that 2+2 might equal a negative number. 

Also I find it very telling that your first response to someone suggesting we close this channel because it creates enmity is to declare victory at their retreat. Some people value their friendships or a harmonious community more than stroking their egos or announcing their righteousness. Now I’m not that kind of person  so I’ll gladly engage you.

As for “liberalism” at large, I’m curious what other ideological movement you’d credit with the last 80 years of global peace and prosperity? People live longer, eat more, and are less likely to die in a war than at any other point in the last thousand years. And really, that’s your take on Afghanistan? You’d root for the medieval death cult over the admittedly corrupt American-backed democracy? Whatever happened to value above replacement?

[BING_XI_LAO]

It's possible that the Russian intervention will actually reduce the amount of military actions being undertaken on the contact line. 
I'll have to eat shit if that prediction turns out wrong though lol.

This has to be a joke or trolling, right?
To read this after 8 years of Russian funding and backing for the separatists and consistent attempts to undermine the stability of the Ukrainian government is truly beyond all parody. You speak of internal ideological contradictions, but then say that 2+2 might equal a negative number.

I'm not certain it will be more peaceful now, but we can find out by continuing this conversation in a few months and seeing how things have turned out. Apparently there's organisations which track the amount of artillery fire like OSCE? So it should be quantifiable.

Also I find it very telling that your first response to someone suggesting we close this channel because it creates enmity is to declare victory at their retreat. Some people value their friendships or a harmonious community more than stroking their egos more than announcing their righteousness. Now I’m not that kind of person  so I’ll gladly engage you.

Well it is a bit insulting for someone to say "delete the thread", it's saying the discussion has negative value.
It would have been more mature to not poke at Jowy like that but I admit I'm a bit childish sometimes.

As for “liberalism” at large, I’m curious what other ideological movement you’d credit with the last 80 years of global peace and prosperity? People live longer, eat more, and are less likely to die in a war than at any other point in the last thousand years. And really, that’s your take on Afghanistan? You’d root for the medieval death cult over the admittedly corrupt American-backed democracy? Whatever happened to value above replacement?

Well the problem with saying things have gone well for the past 80 years, is that civilisation has been on a near-constant upward trajectory for basically all of history. If anything progress has slowed in the West for the past 80 years, compared to the rapid progress of the 80 years before that, but that's probably just because of the limits of human cognition leading to all the "obvious" and "easy" technology being researched. Now we're grinding out Future Tech for +1/+1 health and happiness.
As I remarked a few months back I view liberalism as more of a result of prosperity than a cause, and I do think it has this dangerously ideological (rather than pragmatic) foreign policy, as well as stoking up racial tensions with its egalitarian promises.

Afghanistan I'm pleased about because the whole occupation was so bizarre and absurd, clearly the Taliban have a critical mass of support so the practical thing is to let them run the country and wish them luck.

[Charriu]

This is what happened in many european countries in the 1920s and 1930s. They were tolerant towards enemies of democracy (facist, communists etc.). In the end that tolerance helped bring down democracy and with that the freedoms and tolerance it should provide. This is not a critic, I'm just curious. How would you have dealt with them in that time period?

What happens when the democracy is the fascism?  Hitler was democratically elected, of course.

What happens when a democratic majority votes to exterminate the Jews, or the dissenters, or the unvaccinated, or whatever other subset?

We discussed this a while ago upthread.  The best answer we've got is a strong constitution and court system to protect the rights of that minority.  Every time you seek to destroy those rights when you're on the popular side, you're destroying those rights that you're going to need for the time when you find yourself on the unpopular side.

Sorry, I should have been more specific. How would you have dealt with them in a debate like in this forum?