A new mod enters the ring - Introducing "Close to Home"

[Ginger()]

I was looking at the PB59 statistics coming out, and it seems like ORG was sweeping PRO far away. While this particular case is due to the player locations on other landmasses, the balance between the three commerce/gold traits still does not feel right even in the other games tracked, with ORG keeping up with FIN well into 100 turns in the game. Of course FIN eventually starts to pull in more (taking longer to actually catch and make up the difference), but ORG still has very important hammer savings that are not tracked by the stats.

I would propose giving the lighthouse construction benefit to PRO instead. This would achieve A) Brings ORG back in line relative to FIN without increasing the powerlevel of FIN relative to other traits. B) Gives PRO a nudge in the right direction, and helpfully C) consolidates PRO's gameplan around early sailing and 3c ICTR.

[Mjmd]

Problem I have with moving lighthouse is twofold:
1) I already consider Protective the best "GLH Trait" and this just feeds into it.
2) I would kind of like to buff other traits rather than nerf existing, but I think building discounts is the way to do it.

Protective already has a niche (smaller # of players / good for GLH / good early game teching). It is both pretty good economically but also has a military component. I think a buff that would be both thematical and not TOO good would be 50% bonus to production of a market.

Financial I kind of want to give it back the bank building bonus but reduced to 50% rather than 100%. Plays into it being the later game econ trait.

Spiritual has won a fair few games, but I think giving it a bonus to monastery production makes sense (unsure if 50% or 100%).

Expansive - I know we discussed some % buff to worker that didn't increase first worker, but I don't remember where that was or why it wasn't considered. Could get a bonus to grocer production instead though.

[Tarkeel]

I think you've also fallen into the trap that PRO is a pure economic trait. The free promotions it gives aren't the most relevant in the early game, but once gunpowder becomes available they're great. Especially how D1 unlocks access to pinch or shock straight out of a barracks city.

[Amicalola]

I'm not sure I agree. The PRO promotions are considerably worse than the AGG ones, bordering on useless until muskets/rifles. Comparing with other economic traits, the hammer cost discounts from ORG are definitely stronger than the promotions from PRO, for example (all imo, of course).

[Miguelito]

I've got a few takeaways from PB59 that I wanted to put up for discussion. These mostly refer to modern warfare issues that maybe had not ever come up. Admittedly they may not ever again.

1. I dislike that forts in foreign territory are useless. I think it would make sense for them to at least give the defense bonus. Do not city raider units even get a bonus for attacking units on a fort (might be a mod)? I don't know whether they should also work as canals when occupied. I am obviously charred from the obnoxious unconquerable canal in PB59, but I think it could make sense. Give areward for occupying valuable tiles.
   
2. I fear nukes are still overpowered. I would really like to avoid going down the RtR route of making them a regular collateral unit, because they have a unique mechanic that should be preserved. I would suggest removing the blast radius while maintaining the increased cost. Obliterating one tile should be enough. Mind that that also reduces the effective range of tactical nukes by 1 so you may want to compensate.
   
3. Nukes off boats are sillily overpowered. A nav 2 submarine with tactical nukes has an effective range of 13 to obliterate stacks of arbitrary sizes - that is more than any other unit in the game, however promoted. And the only remotely viable way to even spot it beforehand in advance are freaking stealth destroyers (unless your opponent has their own), because you can't see it from the air and you would need to maintain a destroyer/sub screen more than 1 turn of movement in front of your actual fleet/army/city, ready to be picked up every turn. Missile cruisers have even more range, but they can be seen and they are on a tech that serious people would never research anyways. Proposed solutions (pick any amount): Make nukes (not guided missile) range 1 when firing off a boat (need range 2 if you maintain the blast radius to avoid nuking yourself); increase movement cost for ships by 100%-200% when loaded with nukes (so moving a tile would cost 2-3 movement points); brute force: Have submarines start with maybe 3 movement points and nav1+2. But I'd rather not nerf subs because they are already useless for anything but as a missile launch pad (that's maybe a different issue that the mod should adress)
   
4. This may sound salty but I don't know why an ICBM should be immune against nukes. MAD?
   
5. I would like for paratroopers to be able to attack after being dropped, or at least make them able to take a city "defended" by workers, great people, or obnoxiously immune ICBMs.
   
6. Strategic resources can't be nuked, but they can still be bombed by planes. If Amica had not betrayed the Cause in PB59, they could have bombed Picc's uranium every turn and locked him out of nukes, just by virtue of turn order. I know that in PB18 the players agreed to allow a violation of turn order in order to restore bombed resources, and we could establish that as a rule, but we could also just disable the option.
   
7. On that note, railroads and roads can not be bombed from planes, which I feel is a shame because it would allow interesting tactics. Would it make sense to change it?
   
8. Finally one that has broader applications: The behaviour of culture after a conquest. It is completely impredictable (not even Ref understands it!), makes no sense, and it can linger for several turns. My favourite was a patch of remaining Mali culture on the water after they were eliminated . Now I don't know how deep in the code this is, and how big the peril of a fix breaking stuff is. For the layman it seems pretty simple: After a city changing hands, trigger a proper recalculation of all cultural borders on the map (which I imagine has to happen at the beginning of each turn, and probably upon founding a city. But apparently it is more complicated than that?)
   

I'd be interested in everybody's opinion on these.

[Amicalola]

I've got a few takeaways from PB59 that I wanted to put up for discussion. These mostly refer to modern warfare issues that maybe had not ever come up. Admittedly they may not ever again.

1. I dislike that forts in foreign territory are useless. I think it would make sense for them to at least give the defense bonus. Do not city raider units even get a bonus for attacking units on a fort (might be a mod)? I don't know whether they should also work as canals when occupied. I am obviously charred from the obnoxious unconquerable canal in PB59, but I think it could make sense. Give areward for occupying valuable tiles.
   
2. I fear nukes are still overpowered. I would really like to avoid going down the RtR route of making them a regular collateral unit, because they have a unique mechanic that should be preserved. I would suggest removing the blast radius while maintaining the increased cost. Obliterating one tile should be enough. Mind that that also reduces the effective range of tactical nukes by 1 so you may want to compensate.
   
3. Nukes off boats are sillily overpowered. A nav 2 submarine with tactical nukes has an effective range of 13 to obliterate stacks of arbitrary sizes - that is more than any other unit in the game, however promoted. And the only remotely viable way to even spot it beforehand in advance are freaking stealth destroyers (unless your opponent has their own), because you can't see it from the air and you would need to maintain a destroyer/sub screen more than 1 turn of movement in front of your actual fleet/army/city, ready to be picked up every turn. Missile cruisers have even more range, but they can be seen and they are on a tech that serious people would never research anyways. Proposed solutions (pick any amount): Make nukes (not guided missile) range 1 when firing off a boat (need range 2 if you maintain the blast radius to avoid nuking yourself); increase movement cost for ships by 100%-200% when loaded with nukes (so moving a tile would cost 2-3 movement points); brute force: Have submarines start with maybe 3 movement points and nav1+2. But I'd rather not nerf subs because they are already useless for anything but as a missile launch pad (that's maybe a different issue that the mod should adress)
   
4. This may sound salty but I don't know why an ICBM should be immune against nukes. MAD?
   
5. I would like for paratroopers to be able to attack after being dropped, or at least make them able to take a city "defended" by workers, great people, or obnoxiously immune ICBMs.
   
6. Strategic resources can't be nuked, but they can still be bombed by planes. If Amica had not betrayed the Cause in PB59, they could have bombed Picc's uranium every turn and locked him out of nukes, just by virtue of turn order. I know that in PB18 the players agreed to allow a violation of turn order in order to restore bombed resources, and we could establish that as a rule, but we could also just disable the option.
   
7. On that note, railroads and roads can not be bombed from planes, which I feel is a shame because it would allow interesting tactics. Would it make sense to change it?
   
8. Finally one that has broader applications: The behaviour of culture after a conquest. It is completely impredictable (not even Ref understands it!), makes no sense, and it can linger for several turns. My favourite was a patch of remaining Mali culture on the water after they were eliminated . Now I don't know how deep in the code this is, and how big the peril of a fix breaking stuff is. For the layman it seems pretty simple: After a city changing hands, trigger a proper recalculation of all cultural borders on the map (which I imagine has to happen at the beginning of each turn, and probably upon founding a city. But apparently it is more complicated than that?)
   

I'd be interested in everybody's opinion on these.

1. I agree that occupied forts should work as canals/defenses for an attacker as well. 
   
2. I agree that nukes felt a little bit too powerful in PB59. If you make nukes 1 tile only, it could be worth reverting their cost. A big part of their strength in PB59 seemed to me to be area control, which is hugely nerfed by that change. I don't hate the idea, though.  Another option could be adding more drawback to their use, but I'm not sure how civ could represent that. 
   
3. I think PB59 exacerbated this a lot. So much sea, and so little land that was safe from it. I'm not convinced a change here is necessary, especially if nukes are changed as above. 
   
4. I like ICBM's immunity to nukes. As is, tactical nukes are better most of the time (did you build any ICBMs?), and ICBMs getting a little boost works well for balance. 
   
5. I agree that having paratroopers be able to move into undefended zones after flying could be a good idea. I don't know if I like the idea of being able to attack military units, though, that could be too strong. That said, paratroopers aren't exactly great now so it could be fine. 
   
6. I think enabling a separate turn order rule is fine. At that point of a game, players should be able to communicate reasonably. 
   
7. I would also like this change. 
   
8. That sounds great, but I also have no idea of the technical requirements involved.
   

Side note: I think PRO is too weak compared to ORG. I said as much above - in a world where they get the same gold/commerce, ORG is still considerably better, and right now ORG gets significantly more gold anyway. I like Ginger's lighthouse idea (since GLH is already thematic to PRO, and it weakens ORG slightly), but PRO could also be given the boost without taking ORG's away. 

I would also be open to another change of building modifier. Perhaps harbours and/or custom houses at 100% bonus? Customs houses were actually quite good in PB59, FWIW - they are a large reason my science was so good on T200, for anyone who noticed how abysmal my cottaging was. Obviously that's anti-synergy with the domestic trade routes thing, but it would be a consolation on maps like PB59 where PRO is borderline worthless.

A final alternative would be to obsolete Walls, or especially Castles, later on. Wouldn't it make more thematic sense for Castles to obsolete at Steel anyway?

[T-hawk]

On forts: they don't work in enemy territory, because otherwise that defender could be screwed by the fort they built, having to work against its defense bonus when invading troops occupy it. This problem dates back to SMAC, where nobody built forts (bunkers) on defense since they became a liability for an attacker to occupy.

If you want to get use of a fort in enemy territory, conquer the city whose culture holds that square, so it isn't in enemy territory any more.

[Amicalola]

Yeah, defenses is probably too far. Unoccupied canals though I still think might be good to include.

[Charriu]

Just for your info I'm making notes for myself, but don't want to interject into the discussion too much yet. I fear that as the mod maker I would shut down this discussion too early. But I feel I have to interject on some points.

First of all I would be very careful with information from PB59. Always ask yourself if the same could and would happen on a normal map. My goal with this mod is not to make specific balance changes for a large map with so many players. I said this more often now, but balancing for a 25 player is totally different compared to a 8 player map. Here are just a few things that behave way different on this large map:

- The whole trade system favoring foreign trade for the most part.
- This effects the economic civics too
- Corporations are a hell of a lot better, because you have so much more resources.
- Because of corporations it is way easier to produce stuff with extra hammers even expensive builds like ICBMs and tactical nukes
- AGG is a lot better because you ultimately have to run a way bigger army
- All the wonders affecting only your continent are way better as the continents are bigger
- Random religion spread are a lot more likely around your initial cities
- Of course shrine income is also a lot higher
- Same goes for the monk wonders
- Rebasing air units and units via air transport is a lot stronger

To that extend:

- Don't assume a weakness from PRO based only on the numbers from PB59.
- Nukes should be way harder to build on a standard map.

Another important fact I wanted to interject about nukes. You were discussing limiting the blast radius of nukes. This would also decrease the usefulness of SDI to a degree. I see that Amicalola asked how the SDI works. It works like this:

- If any unit or owned tile of yours would be affected by the nukes blast SDI would trigger

That means you can apply your SDI to allies by simply station some units of yours in their territory. Keep that in mind when discussing the blast radius.

[Amicalola]

Right but even in your statistics for other recent games charriu, org consistently outperforms pro. The only time it's competitive is GLH scenarios, and that's best case scenario for pro (and non viable for more than one player).

Even if we take out the non commerce bonuses, org is pretty clearly the better trait right now. And it's non commerce bonuses are better anyway.