A new mod enters the ring - Introducing "Close to Home"

[Mjmd]

A lot of early civ 4 is the limp to currency. By moving open borders you are hindering that limp. This would indeed make protective better....... But it would probably also just make too good. Its already a good trait to grab early game techs fast and not cripple yourself expanding fast (in addition to all the other strengths mentioned earlier). Constantly in PB62 I wished I was protective.......

Philosophic idea: each specialist gives +1 (hammer or gold or beaker; unsure which yet). Gold or beaker are obviously more thematic. The one problem I have with beaker is that it overlaps with Representation. +1 hammer is stronger probably, but not thematic. I would say this would be in addition to adding the bonus to observatory production.

[chumchu]

I have tested open borders on alphabet extensively in single player:

It takes longer to get open borders which means it is harder to get to currency on commerce generated mostly from trade. This slightly shifts the priority of most players from expansion to commerce. Basically you need to be more careful and creative to get to currency at a good pace if you also want to build a lot of cities. The other ways of generating tech like cottages, coast, resources, fail gold, shrines and specialists becomes slightly more interesting early on as they are more needed.

What I like about it is that pursuing open borders becomes more of a choice. As it is now you get it on a really cheap tech(writing) that is mandatory for a lot of other techs. Moving it back a tech means that other options are more interesting in comparison. For example it is more reasonable to get iron working, monarchy, priesthood, horseback riding before writing now. And after writing you have to decide if you want math(cheaper, gives hammers and also leads to construction and calendar) or alphabet or both when you are heading to currency.

The difference should not be overstated though, open borders have been pushed back one technology. If you have an island city and/or are protective you still will have access to good trade routes before it. It is not like playing on deity instead of monarch/emperor as is the difference between RB and the German civ forum.

[Charriu]

FIN
I've been thinking some more about the traits especially with your comments. I have to realize that one reason for giving markets to FIN was only curiousity. Meaning how much will this influence the gold modifier. But giving FIN the bank and the market to PRO will fullfill my curiousity too, while also not boosting FIN too much.

To clarify I don't think FIN needs a big boost to get even with ORG, rather I think I nerfed FIN enough to give it something small but interesting like this building bonus. So new plan is to give FIN

100% production towards banks

instead of the market.
Now you mentioned that an easier way to buff FIN is to remove the lighthouse nerf. First of all my addition to FIN is mainly to make it more interesting. I think the lighthouse nerf achieved exactly what I wanted to do with FIN (removing the early commerce). Now at the same time I realize that the lighthouse-nerf is somewhat complex and more difficult to wrap around your head. Out of curiousity would it be better if instead of tying the bonus to the building the bonus would be just unlocked with a tech? Would that make things simplier and easier for you?


PRO
I already hinted about PRO in aboves paragraphs. With the market removed from FIN I see a good chance to add it to PRO and I'm willing to listen to Mjmd and make it:

50% production towards markets

instead of the open border and customs house change. Chumchu, I still like the open border to Alphabet change a lot and I have played your mod a good amount of time in single player. I really like what you did there. At the same time I have to realize that the meta and the time for big changes like those is coming to a close for CtH.


IMP
With the PRO change I also see the opportunity to give the customs house to IMP. I think that building would certainly fit IMP better then the factory. So IMP gets:

100% production towards customs house.



EXP
I'm surprised to see so much love for the Aqueduct addition to EXP. Now remember I added the aqueduct bonus when the aqueduct still cost 100 hammers aka reducing it from a 4-whip (or 3-whip with 10 hammers) to a 2-whip with 10 overflow hammers. Bringing in Organized Religion would change it to a 3-whip always.
Now with the 80 hammer costs and the EXP bonus it is still a 2-whip, but with 20 overflow hammers. Without EXP it is always a 3-whip with 10 overflow hammers and together with Organized Religion it can be a 2-whip with just 5 hammers invested in it.

So I have the following two proposals:

a)
EXP gets:
- 20% production towards worker (1 extra hammer every 5th hammer)
- Looses aqueduct bonus
and
- Aqueduct cost is reduced to 70

b)
EXP gets:
- 16.67% production towards worker (1 extra hammer every 6th hammer)
- Keeps the aqueduct bonus

I would rather go with option a) as the worker bonus in option b) is rather pointless and only there for people, who missed the worker bonus (even though this bonus is without any teeth)



SPI
I want to keep the monastery bonus in the backhand for now and would rather see how any civic changes change the evaluation of SPI in the future.



ORG
Now Amicalola mentioned that removing factories from ORG removes its identity. To that extend I want to ask what is the identity/theme of ORG. I think we can all agree that the main theme is maintenance with the civic bonus and courthouse, but what is the second theme. We see that ORG players dominate espionage thanks to earlier courthouses, so is it espionage? The factory would hint towards a theme of production and hammer output, but that's INDs theme already. And the lighthouse looks more like a growth related theme like with EXP.



PHI
I keep the +X beakers for every city change off the table for now. At the same time I keep the observatory off too, because that won't change the evaluation of PHI in any meaningful way.

[Amicalola]

To be honest, I don't understand the motivation behind some of these changes. EXP and IMP in particular seem like a case of fixing something that isn't broken - those traits are both fine without being overpowered, which is kinda the goal right?

[Miguelito]

Fin - how about enabling coast just with Sailing instead of the building? I don't know how early or late you want to have it kick in. In that case probably no building is warranted, or maybe just 50% on banks for some flavour

Exp - I don't like the low percentages at all. In the end the mapmaker just tells you wether you should pick it or not. How about giving +25% (or straight up +1h) just on the first worker, or for every worker after the first, depending on what you feel the lost identity here is?

I would give cheap monasteries to Phi. Nice little bonus and on topic, and Phi has some bulb opportunities towards monk wonders. Spi with both temples and monasteries gets just railroaded into monk economy, so that removes choice. It also needs monasteries less than anybody else since it can always switch into OR

[Ginger()]

To be honest, I don't understand the motivation behind some of these changes. EXP and IMP in particular seem like a case of fixing something that isn't broken - those traits are both fine without being overpowered, which is kinda the goal right?

[Charriu]

Fin - how about enabling coast just  with Sailing instead of the building? I don't know how early or late you want to have it kick in.  In that case probably no building is warranted, or maybe just 50% on banks for some flavour

Exp - I don't like the low percentages at all. In the end the mapmaker just tells you wether you should pick it or not.  How about giving +25% (or straight up +1h) just on the first worker,  or for every worker after the first,  depending on what you feel the lost identity here is?

I would give cheap monasteries to Phi. Nice little bonus and on topic, and Phi has some bulb opportunities towards monk wonders.  Spi with both temples and monasteries gets just railroaded into monk economy,  so that removes choice.  It also needs monasteries less than anybody else since it can always switch into OR

I fear that Sailing is a bit to early for my taste. From what I can see people tend to get Sailing somewhere between T50 and T100 and the lighthouses went up mostly some time after that. Now I was thinking about Compass, but that is researched later most of the time around T150 or so. Now I would guess with the FIN bonus tied to Compass (or in fact any tech) that tech might be researched earlier then usual. Have to think about that some more as T150 is a bit too late for my taste.

I think I will leave any changes to EXP and IMP in the cooker for some longer.

That proposed "monasteries to PHI" change is interesting. With the science bonus from monasteries it would fit as would the name of the trait.

[Miguelito]

I fear that Sailing is a bit to early for my taste. From what I can see people tend to get Sailing somewhere between T50 and T100 and the lighthouses went up mostly some time after that. Now I was thinking about Compass, but that is researched later most of the time around T150 or so. Now I would guess with the FIN bonus tied to Compass (or in fact any tech) that tech might be researched earlier then usual. Have to think about that some more as T150 is a bit too late for my taste.

Compass would be a serious nerf to a trait that is already weaker than Org. Really anything but Sailing or something completely athematic like Writing would be. If you don't like Sailing I suggest to leave it as is and give it a bonus on banks. But imo the Sailing suggestion is more elegant in multiple ways (closer to home, brings back identity, removes the weird Darius synergy), and we had agreed that Fin needed a bit of a buff didn't we?

[Ginger()]

I fear that Sailing is a bit to early for my taste. From what I can see people tend to get Sailing somewhere between T50 and T100 and the lighthouses went up mostly some time after that. Now I was thinking about Compass, but that is researched later most of the time around T150 or so. Now I would guess with the FIN bonus tied to Compass (or in fact any tech) that tech might be researched earlier then usual. Have to think about that some more as T150 is a bit too late for my taste.

Compass would be a serious nerf to a trait that is already weaker than Org. Really anything but Sailing or something completely athematic like Writing would be. If you don't like Sailing I suggest to leave it as is and give it a bonus on banks. But imo the Sailing suggestion is more elegant in  multiple ways (closer to home, brings back identity, removes the weird Darius synergy), and we had agreed that Fin needed a bit of a buff didn't we?

I'm not sure FIN needs a buff was the consensus as much it was that ORG needs a small nerf*. FIN is still the best population efficiency/multiplier trait after turn 100. Earlier if you can lean into it. Which is fine for a trait that otherwise totally lacks hammer bonuses. In a way, it's almost thematic that it lacks hammer bonuses. 

*It's not just the direct commerce traits that need to be compared against each other, but also with the other traits available. If something like Cre and Fin exist in a comparable state now, there's no point buffing FIN to keep up with ORG if that powercreeps FIN to be better than the rest as well. Of course, comparing the economic traits to the expansion/military/versatility ones is difficult and varies with map design, but I think its in a generally good spot right now. 

That being said, I'm not sure what change to make to ORG (play on Monarch? that skews tech costs and game progression), and I understand the drive to buff another trait because there aren't a lot of good options for nerfing ORG.

[Tarkeel]

That being said, I'm not sure what change to make to ORG (play on Monarch? that skews tech costs and game progression), and I understand the drive to buff another trait because there aren't a lot of good options for nerfing ORG.

One of the reasons we started playing on EMP (I was one of those pushing it) was to increase the power of ORG and lower IMP. So this is definitely a solution that should work.