Chevalier Rides Again: A City Lights exploration

[Chevalier Mal Fet]

Turn 2

An interestingly consequential turn 2. 

First, most importantly, we found our capital city of Canterlot:




Because Friendship is Magic, of course! We're a carebear this game, no conquering anyone, so I wanted to communicate that to the other civs. Besides, it'll be funny when I conquer their capitals and rename them Manehattan. 

It's a pretty poor capital, although the starting builder helps as I immediately farm the Wheat, gaining the Irrigation inspiration on top of Sailing. Research is naturally set to Pottery to unlock our free trader as rapidly as possible. 

The  first trade route will be sent southwest, where we find the infant city of Hattusa: 




Note that the city-state got better tiles than me.   Anyway, Hattusa will be a target for early conquest, most likely, but for now the free envoy scored means I get a nice doubling of early science. Note also Incurian's lone point on the scoreboard - he didn't found his city yet. Neither did Rob (last turn) or Math (this turn), who both sit at zero below me with 1. 

Now, I know Math's story, because he posted about it earlier - his chosen settling spot was blocked by a city-state! That's extremely unlucky, because no doubt on Turn 1 when he selected his settler the spot showed as available. Then turn 1 rolled, the city-state settlers all founded their cities, and when Math loaded up his save he found suddenly his chosen capital was no longer valid. Ouch! Losing a settling race to a city-state is a spectacular stroke of bad luck, as he must now take his secondary settling site and loses at least two turns - possibly 3 depending on how far he has to march. He'll be behind the curve the entire game now, alas. 

Nothing else of interest - the scout reveals no useful terrain or local neighbors. I set the build to an oki, intending to use it to explore while my warrior focuses on barb control and civilian escort close to home.

[ljubljana]

CANTERLOT omg i love it

Dang, that's...quite a start you have there :/ Sometimes I do wonder if RB games would play better if more of the starts looked like this though, since it means less time to build either an army or, eg, a Hansa complex before inter-player dynamics become relevant.

What do we even do with the extra charges from that free builder now, anyways? Surely the answer is not "more farms" right? Do we want a quick Hattusa-powered Fishing research followed by whales + pearls hookup for amenities or something? Woden got pretty good mileage in PBEM20 out of working pearls early for a fast pantheon, maybe that's worth consideration here if the terrain calls for it (which, um, it apparently doesn't at all as of now ). Or I suppose we could chop something with it, but I hate giving up flatground forests in land as...interesting...as this...

Should we consider pausing the Oki to start a settler immediately at size 2? Hattusa will partially shelter us from barbs, so we may be able to skate by with the warrior + scout combo, and otherwise city 2 will take FOREVER to go up...

edit: Oh dang, just looked at the turn numbers - didn't realize this is on Quick speed! I guess nothing will REALLY take forever in that case . I have no experience with games faster than standard, though, and no real sense of the strategic implications of such.

edit2: re pantheons, I guess God of the Sea looks better than usual since the rest of your tiles are so terrible, plus it gives you another source of hammers that should escape the wrath of the borough penalties. But whether something like a 2h/5g GOTS whales boat would even be worth working in that case is anyone's guess... Hopefully scouting turns up something more compelling soon...

[Chevalier Mal Fet]

Tinkering with Canterlot, we might be able to manage an Urban city after all. I have two aqueduct spots that could be spent like so:




Swap the Campus for a Classical Borough (early to build, at Construction, would boost Harbor and Holy Site, being boosted to 4 production, 1 gold, and 1 faith from the local districts for a net cost of -8 gold and -3 amenities. In turn I gain 2 faith and 4 production on net from adjacencies, 2 housing, and the ability to build the local improvements (Historical Scribes, +5% culture, lets you record Historical Epics for Great Works of writing and a culture boost in theater squares up to 3 times, Record Keepers, +5% gold, lets you Record Ledgers for +3 gold up to 3 times in Commercial Hubs, or Elder Teachers, which grants +5% science and lets you run Record Teachings up to 3 times, good for +2 production in a Campus each time. Each local improvement also boosts citizen yield by 1 faith and either culture, gold, or science respectively). So that means at Construction, assuming I use my first two slots on the Holy Site (hopefully netting +4/+8 production from adjacencies) and the Campus, I could be stacking up to +18 production from those 3 districts, at heavy gold and amenities penalty. That seems actually pretty viable. 

The Renaissance borough comes online later in the game (sometime in the, er, Renaissance - I think Gunpowder). It is good for another +4 production, boosting the campus's adjacency, and grants access to three more buildings. One grants +15% science in the city, plus access to more projects, while the other grants +15% gold and up to 3 new trade routes - but I might need to squeeze in a Commercial Hub instead of a harbor to manage that. If so, the CH can go down either adjacent to the campus and Renaissance hub for more adjacencies, OR I could go with the science booster and shoot for Oxford University on that flat plains tile. Either plan seems viable! 

Yes, I like how this is lining up. I think that will be my plan and city #2 or 3 will be a rural city, hopefully with camps or pastures. That also lines up with the governors, as Canterlot can take Pingala and City #2 will get Magnus. 

I lose lots of yields at Canterlot but it has shitty yields anyway so no real loss there! 

That's the new plan going forward. Yes.

[Chevalier Mal Fet]

Ooh, this is exciting! Looking forward to following along. I've never looked into City Lights before, but the mechanics described sound interesting for sure.

From a spectator perspective, the crappy start is definitely a good thing. Nothing against your anonymous friends, but just the fact that you plan to write things down probably makes you a heavy favorite, and drawing a 3/2 deer with a big river and a bunch of hills would have made things much less interesting.

Have you thought about wonders that might be high priorities to pursue here? Colosseum seems as nice as ever if you can stick it in the middle of a cluster of urban centers, and Colossus is suddenly much stronger with the increased importance of trade routes. City specialization might also make the terrain-specific ones stronger than normal (if you find the right terrain for them) because boosted tiles won't compete with districts the same way they can in the base game. On the whole I'd guess that most wonders are even worse investments than they are normally (especially Pyramids, unless it boosts the specialized mini-builders?), but worth a thought.

Colosseum will be nice, but the cramped terrain around my capital might make it difficult to fit. We'll see what lies to the east. 

Colossus is on the target list, for sure - the extra trade route will be enough to justify the cost. Great Zimbabwe as well, if I ever find cows! Otherwise it looks my start precludes most wonders, although a coastal city might manage the Mausoleum down the road. On the whole I think most production be invested into the new communities/boroughs and the wonders are, by and large, white elephants.

[Chevalier Mal Fet]

CANTERLOT omg i love it

Dang, that's...quite a start you have there :/ Sometimes I do wonder if RB games would play better if more of the starts looked like this though, since it means less time to build either an army or, eg, a Hansa complex before inter-player dynamics become relevant.

What do we even do with the extra charges from that free builder now, anyways? Surely the answer is not "more farms" right? Do we want a quick Hattusa-powered Fishing research followed by whales + pearls hookup for amenities or something? Woden got pretty good mileage in PBEM20 out of working pearls early for a fast pantheon, maybe that's worth consideration here if the terrain calls for it (which, um, it apparently doesn't at all as of now ). Or I suppose we could chop something with it, but I hate giving up flatground forests in land as...interesting...as this...

Should we consider pausing the Oki to start a settler immediately at size 2? Hattusa will partially shelter us from barbs, so we may be able to skate by with the warrior + scout combo, and otherwise city 2 will take FOREVER to go up...

edit: Oh dang, just looked at the turn numbers - didn't realize this is on Quick speed! I guess nothing will REALLY take forever in that case . I have no experience with games faster than standard, though, and no real sense of the strategic implications of such.

edit2: re pantheons, I guess God of the Sea looks better than usual since the rest of your tiles are so terrible, plus it gives you another source of hammers that should escape the wrath of the borough penalties. But whether something like a 2h/5g GOTS whales boat would even be worth working in that case is anyone's guess... Hopefully scouting turns up something more compelling soon...

I'm not going to farm the rice, obviously, with the builder, since I'll be harvesting it later in either setup, rural or urban. I think either Animal Husbandry or Sailing will be right after Pottery, then Astrology, so I can get an exploring galley out early and a Holy Site down right after the settler pops (haven't done the math on when that is and it dictates when Astrology needs to be done, assuming no boost). So, assuming I find horses and unlock sailing, I think the Whales and capital horses will be the other two improvements, giving me a bit of production and an early amenity. 

As for pantheons, I don't think we should rush one by working the pearls. There's nothing we HAVE to have to make our start work (unlike in PBEM20 when Russia HAD to land Dance of the Aurora AND Work Ethic or the entire civilization was screwed in the first 50 turns), because...well...anything we get is mostly lipstick on a pig here. It's bad enough, and I might build enough holy sites and campuses, that I'm even thinking about Divine Spark! God of the Sea might be worth something down the line, too. It pairs well with fishing villages further boosting the nets and giving the city a +1/1 trade route. Either way no real rush, let's see what the terrain shows us. 

Quick speed nerfs warfare, mostly - your units will obsolete very fast, often in the time it takes to march on a neighbor! It gives a much faster RoI on builds and buildings at the expense of units, so it's perfect for our purposes here where we'll be mostly investing in buildings.

[ljubljana]

Ok, yeah, I guess the math on going urban quickly is not quite as forbidding as I expected, assuming WE - 18 hammers from districts plus a few from the palace/city center and like a 4h domestic TR yield a mediocre-but-salvageable mid-20s capital, only a bit below where you'd end up with the 3 lumbermills (which are swappable to other cities anyways). SE looks like it could contain a decent holy site cluster, with each next to a borough or two and maybe the GP on the far rice, amidst the mountains (?). If the capital is urban that seems to open up the possibility of early chops too since 1f/1h lumbermills are worthless. Though is a 1f/2h unimproved plains forest workable in a tile-starved midgame urban city? I'd like to think not, but maybe...

re builder: are we guaranteed a capital horse or even a nearby horse? I sure hope so but I can't tell from your description of the setup if any resource balancing was done on the map... My experiences with GS SP random maps suggest that they can be quite sparse in that respect relative to the RB standard, especially for stuff like coal and niter in the lategame...

[Chevalier Mal Fet]

It's mostly the Borough improvements that I'm after, particularly that Renaissance one with lots of trade routes available.

I think I can get a better camp/pasture city to sync up the Cree's bonus with the Rural trade bonus - get one monster food city and then run all my trade routes there is the plan. West is pretty cramped but there's room for one city in the Hattusa direction, eastwards might have better luck.

Either way I will need Shipbuilding toot sweet, so that's an early research goal.

EDIT: and no, there was no balancing done. All luck of the draw!

[Chevalier Mal Fet]

Urban Districts: The Renaissance Borough

I did an exploration game last night, quickly clicking through turns to try and unlock all the new goodies and test them out. What I found is that the urban district, particularly the renaissance borough, is powerful enough to be worth shaping the gameplan around. 

Here's the lowdown:

The Renaissance Borough is unlocked fairly early, not at Construction but I think at Castles? Can't remember, will look it up when I get the save back. 

Anyway, the Classical Borough, at Construction, as mentioned gets 3 building choices, boosting culture, gold, or science/production (gee, which one will I go for?).

The Renaissance Borough has higher adjacencies and has the following goodies:








The Academy of Science is nice, perhaps in a dedicated science city with Oxford, but the real prize is the Foreign Trading Company. For the price of 3 projects, you get +3 trade routes, EACH of which can often run 10 food/10 production/miscellaneous science, culture, and etc. in the middle to late game. This is an absurdly good boost and really shines with the Cree's boosted trading routes. And, it only takes a 3 adjacency commercial hub, which is fairly simple to pull off. My planning will assume I build as many of these as my food and amenities can support. So, every single Urban city will have 4 trade routes supporting it, potentially as soon as the Englightenment (when I believe these unlock). 

BUT WAIT THERE'S MORE

rip

At Urbanization - just a little deeper in the civics tree - you unlock these:








More culture and appeal, logistics company unlocks an improvement to trade an amenity for a trade route in addition to scads of gold, but the real gem here is Industrialists. They give +2 production and 1 power for every borough in the empire. That stacks. So if you have an empire with, say, 9 urban cities and 4 rural (entirely doable, as no city should have more than 4 trade routes to run to the rural cities ANYWAY), then you could potentially be getting +18 production and 9 power from each of these you build. Admittedly you need to come up with something like 36 amenities for all those boroughs...so you'll sink a lot of production into entertainment districts (or water parks). Oh, and each one further boosts citizens. 

The net effect in an urban city by the industrial age is this (note that this city is only running 2 trade routes, I didn't optimize my planning at all in this game, chasing the goodies instead to see what they did): 




The city whose name I haven't a dream of pronouncing or spelling has 95 production - as I'm researching Steel and Mobilization! 21 is from outgoing trade routes - 1 each to 2 separate rural cities with communities piled as high as I can support. Note also that at size 12 the city is still growing rapidly, largely thanks to the traded food. 31 is from the districts themselves - 8 from the Campus, 4 from the Classical Borough, 6 from the Holy Site (work ethic), and fully 13 from the Renaissance borough. 

THEN the 12 citizens largely work in the boroughs, stacking 35 more production up. Note that this city has NO farms, NO mines, and 1 crappy fishing boat (it might be better to leave bonus resources UN-improved in an urban city, I think. Lesson learned), and it still has 26 food surplus and 95 production, in the early modern era. And this is with scarcely any planning on my part. It's a normal game and all my building, er, build times, are at 1 turn. 

My capital ran out of things to build! 

So yeah, we're going to make Canterlot an urban city.

[ljubljana]

Wow! Holy crap, one honestly wonders if the stacking Industralists are a bug/oversight, given the placement of that part of the description directly under a clause claiming that "Effects apply to this city only". Also, of course the power model will be completely broken in the lategame - what city ever needs to consume substantially more than 9 power from 9 industrialists empire-wide anyways?

I think the real question now is, in how many cities do we dare to SKIP the renaissance borough? I'm guessing 4 is the sweet spot for number of rurals since that's how many domestic TR destinations we'll need for each urban city? That is, unless you found you needed more to avoid going broke in your test games (but judging by the screenies that appears to have been...not a serious concern in practice).

[Chevalier Mal Fet]

Turn 3




No major excitement, I rejigger Canterlot into its Urban configuration and I plot our first expansion, Ponyville, to the west. Pushing the warrior through Hattusa to see what's on the far side, but I'm considering recalling him for barb duty. We'll see, my first trade route in a few turns is certainly coming this way. 

Ponyville has a few configurations that can work as a rural city, but the key I found is stacking up those districts so that you can run better trade routes there. 

Ljub, the reason 4 is the sweet spot is because the maximum number of trade routes any urban city can support out of its own resources will be 4 - 1 from the Hub/Harbor and 3 from the Renaissance Borough. So, we'll never be able to benefit from more than 4 rural cities at any time. That'll be the number I shoot for, making the decision based on how much I can exploit the Cree in that city.