Are you, in fact, a pregnant lady who lives in the apartment next door to Superdeath's parents? - Commodore

Create an account  

 
Abundance spell

Are we happy with the effect of this?

It was decided as part of the "uncap max population" update and honestly, now that I'm using the spell it feels...confusing and pointlessly complex.
Not only do I have to check if there is a Granary and subtract it to know base maximal population but then I also need to compare to 18 and limit to the range of 4-9 when in reality it just gives +4 for the majority of time.

The effect itself isn't necessarily bad but the wording is horrible.

Also, did we actually do the math, is a +4 bonus really enough? Wouldn't 5 or 6 be better? 4 population is a mere 8-12 extra gold and production and you have to wait for it and deal with unrest, while other rare spells provide more and instantly. (Inspirations is easily 30-40 extra production and Prosperity a similar amount of gold)

Considering this used to be one of the signature spells in the realm (Gaia's Blessing, albeit the name now belongs to the other half of the effects but the population boost really is supposed to be the more powerful half), +4 seems kinda underwhelming and for most areas where you'd get more, you already used Change Terrain and raised it anyway so you're facing a +4 bonus regardless.

How about "Raises maximal population by <number> but to a minimum of 18" sounds?

This eliminates the "base max population" and "at most 9" parts. That makes the spell significantly better for Nomads who don't get a Granary but for everyone else, this wording change means almost nothing.

And then the other question is, how much the "number" should be? Keep as 4? Raise to 6? 7? 8?
Reply

I'd be more inclined to have the spell just raise max population to 18 (no minimum or maximum boost), but also increase food production in the city by X percent, e.g., 50%.

This would give the spell two different benefits. Smaller max pop cities could grow larger. And cities that already have high max pop (which means fertile terrain nearby) could generate significantly more food. That food could support larger armies and/or provide more gold if sold.
Reply

(May 4th, 2022, 10:31)Seravy Wrote: ... And then the other question is, how much the "number" should be? Keep as 4? Raise to 6? 7? 8?

If it's possible to put the number in e.g. the [Spells] section of MODDING.INI, people could play around with it or try to figure it out, provided it doesn't mess things up. +5 sounds good without doing the math. That would almost be like a second Granary. Or should we also rethink the number for this building?
Reply

I just finished a game where I used Abundance quite a bit. It's definitely underwhelming -- I only found use in it because I also had Stream of Life, which is nice in combination for a new settlement.

That said, I don't care about the confusing math and didn't try to count how many max pop I'd get before casting. I think Sir Whiskers is right that what the spell really needs is a secondary effect, as there's no "useful right now" component to the spell, unlike every other city enchantment in the books. But I'd be hesitant to make that second effect be more food from pop. That's the province of halflings and Animist's Guilds -- also, excess food translates to gold and production, which is duplicative with Life.

What about:
- Faster unit production
- Chance of generating Wild Game / Nightshade
- Merge with Gaia's Blessing, remove the Change Terrain effect of Gaia's since that's duplicative with an earlier spell

Honestly to me merging it seems like the best option -- Nature needs to be spending most of its time summoning, casting multiple city enchantment spells just feels like a misallocation of resources. Also, there aren't a lot of effects left to apply that aren't covered by some other spell.
Reply

How about reducing or minimizing the overfarming penalty, so that having more citizens as farmers grant consistently good food instead of diminishing returns? And be able to specialize enchanted city into a food center.

“Target city maximum population increased by 3 or have a minimum of 18. Overfarming penalty eliminated “

Reply

That's a neat idea, zitro. I would like to have a city that's just on full-time farming duty.
Reply

Eliminating the overfarming penalty definitely makes sense as a secondary effect, I'll consider adding that. The primary effect still needs to be buffed even then, though. Making it moddable is definitely a good idea....actually it already is, it's in EcoMaxPop.Cas.
Reply

(May 6th, 2022, 04:36)Seravy Wrote: Eliminating the overfarming penalty definitely makes sense as a secondary effect, I'll consider adding that. The primary effect still needs to be buffed even then, though. Making it moddable is definitely a good idea....actually it already is, it's in EcoMaxPop.Cas.

Actually, I have already put effect of eliminating overfarming on abundance in warlord mod. It turn farming into main source of income for nature wizard's empire.
Reply

It's quite a boring spell as it is, could it be made into a global?
Reply

I guess the idea is enchantment that does nothing at first and becomes better than inspirations with time. Also it is supposed to be something that you want to put on every city and not just production centers.

Unlike civilization there are only 2 options for productive population, you do not work tiles. So the only effects of population are output and unhappiness, both purely linear. Also number of settlers that you can make which is not very relevant.

With all this in mind my suggestion is "increases all population yields by 10% initially, changes to 25% after 20 turns"
Reply



Forum Jump: