[SPOILERS] Magic Science and Nobody Else in Pitboss 66

[El Grillo]

Just chiming in to say that I appreciate you taking the time to write up your thoughts on the snake pick. I also enjoyed seeing the Navy SEAL getting its own section in your pdf upload, which I interpreted it as being so bad that it was out of the question That being the case, please note that America has a new UU in CtH:

America UU: NEW Minuteman - Musket replacement, Starts with Guerrilla 1 and Woodsman 1

[Magic Science]

One aspect you are missing about UU is the deterrent factor. Take Rome for example. We've seen players take Rome to discourage other players attacking them. Those players may not have (fully) used the UU, but it still provided an important defensive purpose.

I think this is how the unpolished terseness of my post causes us problems, because I agree with you! I had that same idea in mind about defensive utility when I was typing, but somehow it was not communicated properly.

The original example sentence was: “Consider the universally beloved War Chariot, Unique Unit of Egypt. Great unit! But even that unit is no good unless it is correct to fight an Ancient Era war with Chariots…”.

It would have been better to say something like this instead: “Consider the universally beloved War Chariot, Unique Unit of Egypt. Great unit! But even that unit is no good unless it is correct to engage in a sufficiently intense Ancient Era military contest with Chariots…”.

The meaning of the new phrase is less clear, so let me try to explain myself. It is possible for the War Chariot to be a good gamble even if you never use one to fight an enemy unit all game long. Correct. However, to be a good gamble, the War Chariot at least requires that you use your military to get what you want in a situation where your War Chariots are still a relevant part of your military. For example, if you settle a contested region (in the Ancient Era in a situation conducive to the use of Chariots) and your rivals could try taking it away from you in war, but then they decide not to without even trying because you are too tough, then your War Chariots were still useful. You wanted land, and you acquired it with your military. For another example, if you settle a reasonable, fair border against a rival (ditto) and then both of you decide to go productively bother other neighbors in other directions because you realize that you are too tough for each other to defeat, then your War Chariots were still useful. You wanted peace on that border, and you acquired it with your military.

The value you can extract from only the possibility/threat of War Chariots (and all the other UUs, of course) is harder to measure and lesser in quantity than the value you can extract in outright war, but you are correct that it does still exist and is significant.

[Magic Science]

Just chiming in to say that I appreciate you taking the time to write up your thoughts on the snake pick.

Hello, El Grillo. I always appreciate further confirmation from lurkers that I am not ranting incoherently to myself in the void of nothing with these posts.

I also enjoyed seeing the Navy SEAL getting its own section in your pdf upload, which I interpreted it as being so bad that it was out of the question

About the Navy SEAL: Well, this is about what I expected when I posted my physical scrawl, because that is not what I meant at all.

What I meant is that Navy SEAL belongs in the category of UUs that are “Promo-ish”. That is, it is a UU that’s unique benefit is comparable to the kind of benefit that can be granted by a promotion. For another example, Impis have an extra movement point, which is like what the Morale promotion can do, so they are also “Promo-ish”. In this case, the Navy SEAL literally just starts with a free March promotion. However, unlike all the others, its “Promo-ish” benefit does not directly increase its movement or its combat victory percentage, so I put it alone in a “Misc.” subcategory. The Navy SEAL being “so bad that it is out of the question” is another matter entirely, not remarked upon in this analysis.

That being the case, please note that America has a new UU in CtH:

America UU: NEW Minuteman - Musket replacement, Starts with Guerrilla 1 and Woodsman 1

About the NEW Minuteman: Thank you! Fortunately, in this case I had learned about that change between writing that analysis and today, but somehow, I doubt that I will last this entire game without missing something from the CtH 3.0 changelog. Keep the tips coming!

The real question is, how long until I mistakenly think that some change RtR made years ago is actually base BTS behavior that is unmentioned in the CtH changelog because it has been retained, not because it is not present? Time to research Animal Husbandry for the Deer and Ivory…

[Magic Science]

[MANY INTELLIGENT THINGS]

I don't see you taking into account that the answer to the question ("is it correct to...") is a variable that the player can control.

[MANY INTELLIGENT THINGS]

This is the core of our cordial disagreement. I think that variable is NOT under the player's control.

For every situation, there is a Best Path that consists of making all the best possible moves all in a row. The player cannot decide what the Best Path is, they can only try to identify it and follow it.

Sure, barring something unusual like dying to a warrior rush or failing to find any horses around you or being isolated on your own deep ocean island, you can always fight someone with Chariots if you want. You can force the issue, but if you have to force the issue to get any value out of your unique, then you didn’t really get any value out of your unique.

When evaluating if your Unique Thing (UT?) was any good, if you “won the gamble”, I imagine what the Best Path for the hypothetical Null Civilization would have been in your situation. Then I examine what the Best Path for the Unique Civilization that you actually played was. If the Best Path for your Unique Civilization was better, then you succeeded. Having your UU and UB was the only difference, and it enabled a better Best Path.

Sometimes it is easy to tell that your Unique Civilization had the better Best Path. If the Best Path for the Null Civilization in your position was to fight someone with Chariots (or just engage in a military contest with Chariots, as I mentioned to Charriu above), and in fact you were Egypt, then of course you won the gamble. If the Best Path for the Null Civilization in your position was to attack someone with Horse Archers, and in fact you were Mongolia, you also won the gamble, if the other conditions that I mentioned for a more obscure unit like the Keshik were true.

Sometimes it is hard to tell if your Unique Civilization had the better Best Path. If the Best Path for the Null Civilization in your position was NOT to fight someone with Chariots, but you were Egypt, then how likely is it that having a stronger Chariot tips the balance and turns fighting someone with Chariots into the Best Path? I think not so likely, and likewise for the other UTs. The bigger picture factors are bigger than your Uniques. If the reason the Best Path for the Null Civilization did not include Chariot combat was that you were far away from all your rivals on a private island, then having the War Chariot makes no difference. If the reason was that there was plenty of land for everyone to peacefully expand into, even though you did have a close neighbor, then having the War Chariot makes no difference. Etc. This is what I was getting at with "the War Chariot is not so incredible to make the choice always yes".

I hope I make sense.

Like I said, I'm a sucker for theory posts. Keep 'em coming!

I have another theory post in mind. In a few days, you will feast your eyes not on an opponent analysis, but on an analysis of the art of opponent analysis itself.

Pseudo-edit: As the lady said, "Superior training and superior weaponry have, when taken together, a geometric effect on overall military strength. Well-trained, well-equipped troops can stand up to many more times their lesser brethren than linear arithmetic would seem to indicate."

Sometime I feel like a weirdo among weirdos on this forum. I have played 1280.2 hours of Civilization V, but 0 of SMAC. How common is that on Realms Beyond?

[Charriu]

Sometime I feel like a weirdo among weirdos on this forum. I have played 1280.2 hours of Civilization V, but 0 of SMAC. How common is that on Realms Beyond?

I too never played SMAC, but my weirdo moment is my starting. I started playing Civilization: Call to Power and then Civ4 never played 1, 2 or 3.

[naufragar]

I have another theory post in mind. In a few days, you will feast your eyes not on an opponent analysis, but on an analysis of the art of opponent analysis itself.

Sometime I feel like a weirdo among weirdos on this forum. I have played 1280.2 hours of Civilization V, but 0 of SMAC. How common is that on Realms Beyond?

I strongly suspect this is just demographics. I can't top Charriu's history, but I remember one time in like 2015 I saw someone in a fast food place playing Civ3 on a laptop and I thought "Neat. Look at that old timer playing that old game." And then I realized he was likely my age...

[Magic Science]

PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCMENT from The Ever-Correct Magic Science Prognostication Department (ECMSPD): We formally predict that Miguelito + Ginger() will select Azteca for their civilization.

This PSA is delivered because you can't say "I told you so " about anything unless you tell someone so BEFORE it happens.

[Charriu]

[Magic Science]

How could they do this to me?

Please excuse me for a moment while I go find a pike owned by a German mercenary to fall on.

[Magic Science]

Gavagai picked Azteca. I'm a genius.