American Politics Discussion Thread

[Mjmd]

Non Sequitur. The argument doesn't follow. For multiple reasons mind you.

While republicans loudly publicly argued there was election fraud to the public, they to my knowledge didn't actually go to court for those reasons. There legal arguments were on election laws and procedures. The proof there was no election fraud is in all the independent (and non independent which still boggles my accounting mind) audits, recounts, and investigations that were done.

There is a fairly obvious reason this specific instance is such a big deal (even if again in my opinion he has done worse) and why Trump hasn't been brought to court. A president is usually just immune to the rule of law because no one wants to kick up that hornets nest. For this specific* instance it may be the investigation concludes it isn't worth it. It may even actually be he did nothing wrong (again in this specific*) instance. But yes your overall point is correct. It is however a fairly big unprecedented step that may lead to more unprecedented steps, which gives me hope in a direction I care about.

I want to be clear what my hope is. I don't give a damn if Trump ends up in jail or not. My # 1 hope in politics is that Republicans are forced away from him. That specifically any idea of spouting election lies, "finding" votes, or sending in fake slates of electors is enough to get someone kicked from the party. I hope Republicans have to campaign on keeping or implementing bi partisan election boards, not disbanding them and consolidating that power into offices they control. My hope is somehow someway we strengthen our democracy after this and the checks and balances in place. Trump isn't going to become a US dictator as much as he wants to be. We aren't that weak yet. But we are on a path where the Democratic core of our country is under threat. The checks held this last time, but for how long? How long when election deniers are campaigning for power. How long when there is no accountability either from the government or the people?

History is littered with examples of dictators who didn't face accountability for their actions. Again, I would highly recommend going through some history of overturned democracies. It isn't pleasant, but the key ingredients are lack of action by government and some portion (and it doesn't have to be the majority) who will go along with a 'side' no matter what they do.

[darrelljs]

I remind you that no court has ever found Trump guilty of anything, through all these media frenzies.

In June 2016, USA Today published an analysis of litigation involving Donald Trump, which found that over the previous three decades Trump and his businesses have been involved in 3,500 legal cases in U.S. federal and state courts, an unprecedented number for a U.S. presidential candidate.[1] Of the 3,500 suits, Trump or one of his companies were plaintiffs in 1,900; defendants in 1,450; and bankruptcy, third party, or other in 150.[1] Trump was named in at least 169 suits in federal court.[2] Over 150 other cases were in the Seventeenth Judicial Circuit Court of Florida (covering Broward County, Florida) since 1983.[3] In the 1,300 cases where the record establishes the outcome, Trump settled 175 times, lost 38, won 450, and had another 137 cases end with some other outcome. In the other 500 cases, judges dismissed plaintiffs' claims against Trump.[1]

He’s lost a few, but his batting average is pretty good.

Darrell

[Mjmd]

I assumed both of us were talking about since he announced his presidential run, although I know there has been some non jail time stuff. Also, including his companies in the count probably is only accurate part of the time /shrug. Again, not really what I care about.

[BING_XI_LAO]

Trump should’ve been pursued on incitement of violence, full stop. There was mass agreement he caused the events on Jan 6 in the months after, but that has since changed, as people pass the event from lived memory to political history (unlike what happened with 9/11, where it has become a civic holiday and a never-ending reminder to give up your rights for the security state).

So at this point, no new evidence from this raid will change opinions, instead only incite. This is stretching out longer than watergate, when there was one clear charge, one clear moment, for which Trump should’ve been indicted/arrested/had justice done to him.

There’s also the argument this will be used to disqualify him from running if there is evidence of mishandling documents. The legality of that would be immediately challenged, brought to a republican Supreme Court, and struck down in favor of trump. Instead of playing realpolitik for the last 40 years, the dems have been playing realdumb.

In your view what was bad about Jan 6th? Did the Trump rioters actually kill anyone? Do you think they actually had a plan to overthrow anything, "capture" politicians (and then what?) or was it merely a particularly dramatic protest at a location that often hosts protests?
Especially after after all the much more malicious BLM riots of 2020, are you really more sympathetic to politicians than to small businesses who had their places trashed?

From what I recall, the only murders were of two of the protestors, one whose name I forget but who was repotedly trampled by police, the other being Ashli Babbit shot in the neck at close range. Her death was far more explicitly deliberate than Derek Chauvin constraining George Floyd, and nor was there any conceivable self-defense aspect unlike when Rittenhouse was attacked by weapon-bearing arsonists. There were other deaths but IIRC they were strokes, heart attacks, and suicides committed some time later by police (which seems pretty weird).

If you want the violence of Jan 6th to be punished shouldn't that start with charging Lt. Mike Byrd with murder?

[BING_XI_LAO]

So about this Mar-a-Lago raid... I was pretty angry about it when I first posted here hence the rant about the JFK assassination. I assumed they actually had a plan, but maybe it's a case of Brandon gonna Brandon.

It seems to have turned into a damp squib? Especially that nuclear stuff, that sounds overbaked and grasping at straws.
Apparently they did take two valid passports, and some say that's a hint toward an indictment, so is this going to come to anything? And if there are charges, will they go through bodies controlled by midterm election outcomes?

[Mjmd]

Well you see usually trying to disrupt the peaceful transfer of power is bad . See my defense of democracy post for why peaceful (and I'm including willing here as well) transfer of power is one of the two key strengths of democracy. 

I'm not exactly sure how the hell anyone can equate normal protests outside the capital building to violent protest in the capital. Like I get people have world views in their head they don't like to break, but still.......

[BING_XI_LAO]

Lol i just looked at the Jan 6th Wikipedia page and it contains the idea that it was "part of a 7-point plan to overthrow the election". Meanwhile Trump doesn't even have a system for deciding who he's going to endorse in primaries, and in one case endorsed just "Eric" when the race had three Erics in it. Make-believe Trump is really cool and awesome... not like the real one who is kind of a naive, clueless and cuddly old meme man who shaved Vince McMahon's hair in the Battle of the Billionaires.

[Mjmd]

The greatest argument against democracy is talking to the average voter..... The 2nd great strength of democracy is public accountability. If we can't stop something THIS OBVIOUS we are not in for good times. Cheney lost.... sigh. Its one of those I had some hope for America and it keeps getting squashed.

[BING_XI_LAO]

Well you see usually trying to disrupt the peaceful transfer of power is bad . See my defense of democracy post for why peaceful (and I'm including willing here as well) transfer of power is one of the two key strengths of democracy. 

I'm not exactly sure how the hell anyone can equate normal protests outside the capital building to violent protest in the capital. Like I get people have world views in their head they don't like to break, but still.......

Surely there was never going to be any actual attempt to overthrow the Senate. Like sure, you chased them out on Jan 6th... then what? Permanently occupy the place? Trump demands the army recognise him as re-elected? What was supposed to happen to make the disruption permanent, and without that isn't it just another protest interrupting the Senate, which does happen? It's not even the top google result for "protest interrupts Senate"


And then when it comes to violence - the BLM protests, which were supported by the Jan 6th condemners, caused way more damage and deaths. There werew a couple of conservatives assassinated in the vicinity of protests that year, and then at Jan 6th you have another getting shot when it clearly wasn't necessary (compare also to Ahmaud Arbery, who actually grabbed the gun and pulled the barrel towards him while trying tt punch the guy who was accosting him). And then the shooter gets a freidnly media interview and isn't even arrested let alone charged.

Isn't the balance of violence extremely one-sided here?

[Mjmd]

Honestly I know there is some evidence Jan 6th was planned, but if so it was a stupid plan...... I don't disagree. To me Jan 6th at minimum is the smoke from a fire. Its a sign of the danger of election lies. The true coup attempt was the fake electors.

One thing does not equate to another. One bad thing does not mean another bad thing is ok.

These are logical fallacies. I've gone over this.