American Politics Discussion Thread

[Mjmd]

I'm not saying Democrats can't be racist. They have a host of problems and hypocrisies. Then there is the ever present "not in my backyard" problem. IE we really love talking about doing something about a problem, but not near me.

[superdeath]

I'm not saying Democrats can't be racist. They have a host of problems and hypocrisies. Then there is the ever present "not in my backyard" problem. IE we really love talking about doing something about a problem, but not near me.

[Mjmd]

I'm libertarian, not exactly conservative or Republican.

I will try to just stick to worrying about the overthrow of our democracy. That I will never back down from however.

And I will continue to remind you that the overthrow was Democrats cheating the rules to favor their side.

Can you answer this question?  If your side really thought that Trump was Literally Evil Racist Genocidal Hitler or whatever, wouldn't you do everything you could to cheat him out of votes?

As a libertarian Its odd how you parrot Republican views so well but can't defend them. Its odd you would be so blinded to the danger to our democracy if you weren't incredible entrenched in your own mind.

I will continue to remind you "Ad Nauseum", Tu Quaque, and Equivalency. If you don't have any actual counter arguments or logic and just keep repeating the same thing, you may be wrong!!! I've also asked several logical questions you've never answered.

I'm going to dissect that last part.
A) I don't have a side. Or didn't until after Trumps action and Republicans embracing of overturning elections. I would love to have a second legitimate party to vote for or to go back to voting for cartoon characters. 
B) I want to note the cognitive disconnect between legally changing election rules vs pressuring legislatures to overturn their states elections or find votes or just sending fake electors to hope you can get it overturned in congress. I 've noted prior that legally changing voter laws is one of the weaknesses to our democracy. Its not at the same immediate danger level and we've survived before, but its having parties who are trying to gain and maintain power also be in charge of election policy and oversight  has always been and will continue to be a weakness.
C) That is the danger you don't see. Its incredible easy to justify taking power. Next election after Democrats win the popular vote and Republicans have narrowly won states and their electoral votes through voter disenfranchisement should Democrats overturn the election? Again this is without massive spreading of lies; clearly with a broken unjust system. Surely its the only moral thing to do? NO NO NO NO NO. DANGEROUS NO. T-Hawk you've admitted Republicans tried to overturn the election, you just think it was justified in some way (which you've never been able to prove even a pretext for that stands up). What I've tried to say before and will continue to say is to open your eyes to the historic truth that those taking power ALWAYS have a justification. Democrats could use an overall on the surface moral justification for taking power and it would still be wrong. Its why the Jackson vs John Quincy Adams 1824 outcome is so interesting to me. Because if you had to pick the more moral and just man most people would choose Adams in spades. You can justify Adams legally persuading congress and its even possible if it had been a straight race he would have won. However, it was dangerous; it relied on Jackson doing the right thing, which he did, but again populist former general getting election taken away by political elite, doesn't normally end that way.

[Mjmd]

BTW I would love if somehow we could get rid of the electoral college. Its a huge liability to our democracy.

[T-hawk]

His immigration policies were enacted in a way that purposefully targeted Latinos.

The immigration policies do not mention or involve race at all. They would have exactly the same effect on anyone from those countries who is White or Asian or Native American or anything else.

The tendency isn't that "muh racist southerners saw republicans racist and liked that more", the tendency is dominated by the shift of rural voters in ALL locations away from the democrats

This is correct, and I've said why before. Trump made the Republicans the party of the working class when the Democrats made themselves the party of the nonworking class. Hillary's "put the coal miners out of work" flipped the coal mining states and the 2016 election.

[darrelljs]

BTW I would love if somehow we could get rid of the electoral college. Its a huge liability to our democracy.

My fuzzy memory is that it was designed to protect small, rural states from being dominated by large, urban states.  Seems to be working as designed... 

Darrell

[darrelljs]

His immigration policies were enacted in a way that purposefully targeted Latinos.

The immigration policies do not mention or involve race at all.  They would have exactly the same effect on anyone from those countries who is White or Asian or Native American or anything else.

You'd have to be an utter moron to craft a policy that targets a specific race to specifically target that race, because that's illegal (see the initial failed attempts for the muslim ban). Instead you have to find nominally race free language that still in practice targets a race.

Darrell

[T-hawk]

Can you answer this question?  If your side really thought that Trump was Literally Evil Racist Genocidal Hitler or whatever, wouldn't you do everything you could to cheat him out of votes?

Mjmd, you didn't answer that. Do you think that the side (ok I won't say "your" side) that thinks Trump is Literally Evil Racist Genocidal Hitler didn't try to cheat him out of votes?

T-Hawk you've admitted Republicans tried to overturn the election, you just think it was justified in some way (which you've never been able to prove even a pretext for that stands up).

The protests are justified, because we cannot know if the election was stolen, because the courts refused to look for fraud. Accepting an election result without the auditability to know if it was legitimate is the danger, since a party that succeeds in that gains the power to do it again.

[Mjmd]

BTW I would love if somehow we could get rid of the electoral college. Its a huge liability to our democracy.

My fuzzy memory is that it was designed to protect small, rural states from being dominated by large, urban states.  Seems to be working as designed... 

Darrell

Basically yes it was supported by small states in the north and I believe most of the slaves states in the south (ie both low pop states). I would argue that is the job of the senate though to represent more rural states. Also, the way Republicans gerrymander the house, they are well represented there as well.

The main problem with it is that it is an obvious weak point in controls. 2020 election we were probably lucky it was multiple states vs a single state. Imagine all the pressure parties in power can bring down on their own party officials in a single state to "find some votes" or "overturn based on x unproven claim". Having a popular vote winner and then that winner not being the overall winner also creates an opportunity for destabilization every time it occurs.

[Mjmd]

Can you answer this question?  If your side really thought that Trump was Literally Evil Racist Genocidal Hitler or whatever, wouldn't you do everything you could to cheat him out of votes?

Mjmd, you didn't answer that.  Do you think that the side (ok I won't say "your" side) that thinks Trump is Literally Evil Racist Genocidal Hitler didn't try to cheat him out of votes?

T-Hawk you've admitted Republicans tried to overturn the election, you just think it was justified in some way (which you've never been able to prove even a pretext for that stands up).

The protests are justified, because we cannot know if the election was stolen, because the courts refused to look for fraud.  Accepting an election result without the auditability to know if it was legitimate is the danger, since a party that succeeds in that gains the power to do it again.

I think both sides attempt to legally change the system to favor them all the time. I've admitted this is a huge weakness to our democracy. If that was your bar for overturning elections both sides could try to overturn every election. I hope that is obvious? Again, Democrats without lying could easily justify. Should we overturn the Texas spring election because they threw out 18,000 votes in a blatant attempt to preserve power? Its a dangerous path to go down. An easy path.

AD NAUSEUM!!!!! There has been no proof of fraud, quite the opposite. Again we know there was no fraud because of multiple recounts, audits, investigations. Including and I can't believe I have to keep saying this Republican led investigations (again non independent shouldn't be let near this with a 1000 ft pole). We have a bloody phone call with Republican officials standing up to Trumps fraud claims, refuting them, and refusing to "find votes". The 2020 election overthrow attempt is easy to see. The main easy way, that should be obvious, is that many Republicans stood up to their constitutional obligations. Most of those people are gone..... How many remaining will be too afraid next time? How many will willingly go along? There is a reason it is imperative to vote Democrat even if you believe they are wrong on everything else. Next time its going to be harder to tell.