RBP3 [SPOILERS] - Friendly Kittens (Ragnar of Maya)

[Maniac Marshall]

In the words of James "Paladin" Taggart form WCIV "There will be no war with the boarder worlds."

They will move the city 1W, in exchange we will give them the ridiculous price of a worker (very soon) and a settler (not one of the next 2).

I will post the chat later.

[Maniac Marshall]

me: Hey, I asume you got my emails?
bobchillingworth: indeed
me: I'm at work btw, so i gould get called away at any second
bobchillingworth: I was going to type up a large point-by-point of your emails, but I just don't care enough about the game to do so
in summary: I'm going to found in place, and you're seriously over-reacting

OK, this is not starting well...

I'd hate to ruin months of friendly diplo & relations over a mediocre city, but I take, what, 3 plains hills that you consider "yours"
You requested months ago a certain city site to my east
moogle and I agreed, because we're nice
and it didn't conflict much
and now when I try to found a city to complete my first ring
me: no, i'm not seriously over reacting. You're overlapping 5 tiles there

Actually, it's taking away at least 2 plains hills and a grass... and the bandanna that I really wanted for health needs...

bobchillingworth: oh well?
overlap happens
have you seen my border with india
or kyan?
me: I have. I've also talked to Kyan about this situation. He agrees with me about it being a virtual decflaration of wqar on us
bobchillingworth: I'm sure you can outmicro me for culture in that area anyway
what.
virture declaration of war?
bull fucking shit
me: Says the guy who told India the same thing?

Which he absolutely did. I'm hoping that pointing this out makes him see a bit of reason...

You're trying to do to me exactly what you were so upset with them about doing to you
bobchillingworth: yeah, and I grew up and bargined with them
and they ended up getting like 3 of my f[
fp*
like I said, oh well
we're never going to have perfect borders with everyone
me: And I'm braganing with you in exactly the same way
I'm asking you to move a city one tile to honor your previous agreement
bobchillingworth: hardly. You're just demanding that I either take a ton of overlap with my capital and throw away several grassland, or lose my bannana
I'm not breaking anything!
you've been able to build your city you asked for for dozens of turns!
and you still can!
plus it's not like you gave me anything for land concessions

His last point is correct, however, there was never a statute of limitations placed on the settling agreement, which is why we've never been in a hurry to plant this city, a city which will be really really good after biology + levee... Also, they never ASKED for any concessions.

me: And we were never in a rush to do so because we had a boarder agreement
bobchillingworth: My civ has twice placed cities in different locations than my preffered spots based on your wishes, and gone out of its way to protect your from my allies
me: We would have likes to settle a city for the corn too, but when you said you were settling there, we were more than happy to let you do so because you'd agreed to let us have this site
bobchillingworth: if you want to have some sort of stupid feud, fine
I'm sick of the game anyway
me: When have you placed any other city in a non preferred position for us?
No, I don't want to have a stupid feud. I want you to honor your previous agreement.

This is not going well... I knew going in he didn't want to be playing this game anymore, and figured this could go one of two ways. 1) I don't care, you do, so since it matters so much to you, fine or 2) I don't give a rats ass about this game, so what the hell, maybe a war would be fun, bring it on. It's trending toward #2 unfortunately. I need to think of something.

bobchillingworth: I could have settled further north with my southern city which takes one(!) FP from "your" spot (which you apparently can't even get over), and you made me move the city I just founded a tile over

That FP city would have been a complete violation of our agreed on spot. The other city...

me: I never asked you to found that city a tile over
bobchillingworth: and again, I don't have any sort of mutual arrangement with you. I just agreed that you can place a city where you requested, and you still goddamn can
yes you did, and I can forward the chat if you really care
me: I asked you where you were going to found it, but I told you to found it where you wished

I'm 100% correct on this. I asked him where, told him if he placed that city there, it would help us, but that if he wanted to place the city in another location, that we were fine with it BECAUSE WE WERE GETTING THIS SPOT!

bobchillingworth: because it would have kept you from founding some filler city or something
me: Your placement of the city you're about to found will effectively stop that
bobchillingworth: because you'll miss 3 plains hills.
give me a goddamn break
me: IF you want that other city moved, I'll be happy to raze it and give you a settler to move it where you want it
bobchillingworth: hah. no.
me: All this game, I thought you guys were our friends =/
Nowq you're going to throw that all away over this shit?

Last ditch appeal before offering concessions really. I have only faint hope of it working, but oh well.

bobchillingworth: eh, same.
me: I'd be willing to try to negotiate something, even if I don't feel like we should have to, but we intend to found that city =/
bobchillingworth: Like I said, I'm tired of this. I've been sick with PB3 for a while, and I'm getting pretty sick with your civ's inability to give along with taking when it comes to a files ultimately pointless border tiles. If you want to fight me over this town, go for it. And tell Kyan to bring his boys along too
I'd rather die fighting my former friends than one of the nobody civs I haven't taked to since March
me: I dont want to fight with anyone
but I expected you to honor your agreement.
bobchillingworth: kindly explain where I haven't

I probably should have just cut my losses and given up here...

me: You told us we could have that site, now you're making that practically impossible
bobchillingworth: It's by no means impossible
4 tiles of overlap is hardly anything
I'm not creative
I'm terrible at micro
I have no culture producing wonders
me: Without those hills, that's not much of a produiction city is it?
bobchillingworth: I can't even culture bomb that site
this map is huge! Literally!
me: I cant do any of those things either
bobchillingworth: larger than huge!
you can found other production sites
not all cities can be champions
it's still a nice spot

It's become clear we're not going to agree on this issue. I have a couple of choices now... I either go along with the threat and declare war, I be a pussy-kitten and back down, or I try to broker something.

me: What would it take to convince you to move that city by one tile? A settler? Coupld of workers? I'll listen to any reasonable request
Again, I don't feel like I should have to, but I will make whatever reasonable concessions you can come up with
I don't want to fight
I don't want to argue
I'd like everyone to be happy
I'm assuming your trying to think of something. I'll brb.
I'm going to be away for a couple of more minutes.
bobchillingworth: oh whoops was playing FFH PBEM turn
me: nevermind
oh ok
Can we not come to some kind of agreement?
You have a lot of land to your north between you and Krill, we could give you a settler or a couple of workers
We'd be happy to sign an official NPA or whatever if you want. Whatever makes this work
bobchillingworth: We have one
already
me: I don't want war, least off with someone I was prepared to defend against my own alliance not long ago
bobchillingworth: look, I'd accept moving my city back 1W, but I'm not happy about it. I'd like both a settler, and a worker as compensation

Higway fucking robery!

me: Agreed.

Yes, agreed. I know we could have just let him settle on that hill and culturally kicked his ass, and I'm sure Ref will tell me that's EXACTLY what he'd have preferred we do, but why. Now we can build the city without engaging in a culture war. Thus for the cost of 160 hammers, we can get our spot, give it breathing room by backing him off. We do lose the banana, but it was clear he'd realized how important that banana was and we would have to pry that from his cold, dead hands. This also leaves open the possibility of still founding that filler city if we so choose. And, we have potentially kept a late game ally.

I'm not happy about it either, so that probably means it's fair...

Truth. And with that, we have disarmed the situation And with that...

bobchillingworth:
4:48 PM me: I'm at work for 2 more hours, so I can't get you as exact timetable. The worker I can probably deliver in 3-4 turns.
bobchillingworth: that's fine, I'm not going to try to hold you to some sort of arrangement
me: I'm whipping someting in PR i think and overflwoing into a worker iirc.
I can deliver that one to you
4:49 PM I'm glad we were able to work this out
bobchillingworth: again, I don't really care about the game that much. It's clear that you're deeply invested, to a degree which I'm not sure I understand, but I suppose I can accept
or respect
hehe "accept"
me: I spent 18 consecutive hrs on it sunday
from 10 minutes after I woke up
4:50 PM till the turn rolled. waited up 90 minutes to play it
bobchillingworth: far be it from me to tell you how to order your priorities...
but really?
me: Yeah
4:51 PM I do like, work, eat, watch cardinal games, go to cons, and this game. that's my life =/
bobchillingworth: Mine is better because I have Mass Effect and Pokemon :D
(kidding?!)
me: lol, I love pokemon
I met my gf because of it
bobchillingworth: I gave up hope on winning the game a while ago, but for certain when Moogle went on long-term hiatus
4:52 PM I... am not a skilled micromanager
I don't report much for PBEM3, but I'm sure it comes through in what the others write about my civ
me: I'd offer to help you... but maybe that's an offer you wouldnt want to take up heh
bobchillingworth: I have more fun just doing whatever
tbh
me: There's an enourmous ammount of pressure on me
4:54 PM I feel like I have to do well or I'm letting my teamates down
bobchillingworth: I'm not sure they would really care tho
me: I've been told by roughly half the game im one of 2-3 favorites to win...
bobchillingworth: yeah, you, India, and maybe England
me: dude, I signed up to spend half an hour a day writing silly stories about our turns ;p;
4:55 PM Ottos
are up there too
bobchillingworth: well they have a really nice civ, but they've been shedding players
might just be down the WK now, and I'm not sure that he's incredibly skilled
down to*
me: Nope, sockboy is back
4:56 PM Thanks, btw. Seriously, I hope we never have to go to war, especially with you guys
4:57 PM bobchillingworth: ah sure np
me: We wouldnt be where we are today without your civ in the early years. I haven't forgotten it
bobchillingworth: hah, well
4:58 PM I have too many "allies" in this game and hardly any objectives, so if you ever do want to fight....
me: Now I get to piss Krill off and tell him there isnt going to be a war 15-20 turns from now lol
bobchillingworth: hmmmmm
he sent me a diplo feeler a few turns ago
how interesting
me: I'm not surte there would have been anyway
I prolly would have wusseed out. I'm not looking forward to (any) war
4:59 PM bobchillingworth: Krill said he wanted an "understanding" with my civ
I assume he meant borders (?)
I tried to chat with him last night but we didn't get much said before I lost power
me: He does
bobchillingworth: ugh he probably things I quit chat on him :P
I really gave up my moronic "feud" with him a long time ago
5:00 PM me: Just responding to last night when I let pat know there was a chance we might get dragged into a war, and that if we did, I expected India to kill us lol
bobchillingworth: it was fun having an enemy for a while, but I have little interest in fighting and dealing with turn splits
5:01 PM me: oh god, same
bobchillingworth: well if he wants a border arrangement and/or nap I'm game I guess
me: You know, we really wanted that bananna lol. But I think 1W really isnt a bad spot for you.
5:02 PM there's like 3 bananna on the entire map
bobchillingworth: I'm sure I'll survive
I am going settler-crazy
founding another town in about 4 turns
on the border with Kyan
actually
me: we're planting 2 more in the next 10, to get to 12
bobchillingworth: which he doesn't know about yet
5:03 PM me: I wont tell him
bobchillingworth: I guess I should
I'm not trying to steal his land, but there's a corn and incense between us
that has gone unclaimed for too long
5:04 PM and there's no agreement for that area that I know of...
me: You know, I only got 90 min sleep last night worrying about this conversation...
bobchillingworth: good lord man
me: I know... this is why i dont usually play long time games anymore
Used to play lots of hourly ticker games, and I was really good at them, but I get obsessive
5:05 PM my trwmates have been lecturing me on being more detached
bobchillingworth: actually I've lost a little sleep over some of these games too, but mostly PBEM3 with my couple wonder races
5:06 PM one advantage of the pitboss is that you can update in real-time whether you lost a wonder or not, with the tracker
PBEM you just have to wait until the save finally gets to you...
it can get pretty nerve-wracking
gives you something to look foward to after work, tho
unless you lose the race of course
then it's all terribly depressing
5:07 PM me: we're getting our first wonder in 3 turns...
I seriously doubt there's a competition though
CUDDLE only has 2 civs in a religion
Ruff is a funder, so its no good to him, and DIM just changed to a religion last turn
5:08 PM bobchillingworth: hey about my to-be-founded city: I will of course build some culture improvements in there, so don't hold off on founding your town for too long
5:09 PM me: Wont. i could give you the exact turn we found it, but im sure its in the next 10
5:13 PM bobchillingworth: diner time for me
later!
me: c ya
was called away. enjoy
5:14 PM (leaving now. might show green because it's open at home, but I'm gone)

[Maniac Marshall]

The most recent turn is played, though I think we're still waiting on England to fund us.

In other news, Krill is again floating the stop trading with Ruff referrendum (sigh) and is leaning on us to vote yes. I honestly don't see why as you can see from the email I sent Ruff.

Hey, just wanted to let you know that the vote is comming due again,
and the "Stop trading with Ruff" referrendum is the one on the table
again. We're being pressured by PAT to vote yes on this for some
reason I don't really understand. It might slightly decrease your
income for ONE turn until you can reacquire OB agreements with
everyone, but otherwise, does nothing.

Krill seems to think that it stops trade until the next vote, but
that's not true. When the stop trading with Byz one passes, we
reacquired OB the very next turn.

We're probably going to vote yes to appease our alliance, but we're
certinally would like to resign open boarders with you right after the
vote, as well as replace any lost income for the turn you get stuck
with lower trade routes. We would trust you to give us a proper
estimate.

~Maniac

PS: We will be spreading Bhudism at some point (and 3 other religions
too), we just haven't had time yet.

[Maniac Marshall]

Swell, here we go again. He's arranged a boarder agreement with Krill, who sent him a picture of the area near Violet dot and told him he could settle there for the rice... which really screws up another of our spots. I THINK I can talk him out of this one eventually, because there's CRAPLOADS of land not near us that he can settle, whereas we're quickly running out of spots.

[RefSteel]

Swell, here we go again. He's arranged a boarder agreement with Krill, who sent him a picture of the area near Violet dot and told him he could settle there for the rice... which really screws up another of our spots. I THINK I can talk him out of this one eventually, because there's CRAPLOADS of land not near us that he can settle, whereas we're quickly running out of spots.

One thing to remember from your recent posts here and the chat above: We are now considered serious contenders for actual in-game victory. (sighhhhh....)

One thing to remember always: Krill wants to win.

I believe he, like India, will honor agreements he actually makes. I believe that he, even more than India, will be an honorable and trustworthy ally in e.g. the case of PAT so long as he believes we are doing so. But trying to create conflict between us and one of our-but-not-his in-game friends? Absolutely fair game. (In his opinion, but I think you'd have to agree.) Note of course that all of this is based on my inference and assumptions, and subject to Me Being Wrong.

[EDIT: In other (good?) news: I have (finally) successfully re-installed Civ on my computer, and should be able to log into the game again, to the extent I ever have time. Given the outcome of your recent chat, I will refrain from spamming "Keep," "Raze," and "& Replace" signs all over Byzantine territory.]

[Maniac Marshall]

One thing to remember from your recent posts here and the chat above: We are now considered serious contenders for actual in-game victory. (sighhhhh....)

It's all your fault. If you weren't so good at this game, we'd suck and no one would care about us.

One thing to remember always: Krill wants to win.

I believe he, like India, will honor agreements he actually makes. I believe that he, even more than India, will be an honorable and trustworthy ally in e.g. the case of PAT so long as he believes we are doing so. But trying to create conflict between us and one of our-but-not-his in-game friends? Absolutely fair game. (In his opinion, but I think you'd have to agree.)

Absolutely not! Why, it's completely unconscionable and I have, never, EVER done anything even remotely similar to this in other games!

OK, seriously, I never said it wasn't a great move on his part, but that doesn't mean it doesn't piss me off that he did it.

[EDIT: In other (good?) news: I have (finally) successfully re-installed Civ on my computer, and should be able to log into the game again, to the extent I ever have time.

Best...news...EVAR (or at least this week).

Given the outcome of your recent chat, I will refrain from spamming "Keep," "Raze," and "& Replace" signs all over Byzantine territory.]

OMG, you should do it and then I could show him the picture. It would be freaking hilarious.

RE: Byz being difficult... He no longer cares about the game. Most of the other civs are telling me the same thing, even England. I think Shoot the Moon is losing interest too since Mr. Nice Guy has disappeared. That makes it all the more frustrating, since I DO care.

He's offered us a supply of incense if/when he gets a 2nd one at no charge, so at least that's something. I almost wish he'd do something stupid and war with Kyan so we'd have an excuse to attack. In purely logical terms, we should attack Byz at some point, but I really don't want to. I want to get our 15 good (and possibly 1-2 filler) cities, and sit on them and try to win.

Let me make a slight change to something I said earlier. It's not so much that I want to win as it is that I want to do everything reasonably possible to try to win. I don't want to look back after the game and think "If I'd just tried harder, given the game more time, did this or that, we could have won."

Things I will NOT be doing to try to win, however, will be lying, turning on friends without just cause, or anything else similarly dishonarable. I might have played with the English language a couple of times, and "failed to remember to send an acceptance to an agreement" in one case(which no one ever noticed, and we probably will never make use of that loophole anyhow), but I have not, and WILL not break my word without some extremely dire circumstance, and even then I'd try to make it right by whoever we'd broken an agreement with.

There will be no big sneak attacks, no attacking people with gifted armies, no pretending to be friends with somone just to get information from them (or worse). I would rather lose with honor, than win with any sort of grand backstabing manouver. It's just the way I'm wired I guess.

[Maniac Marshall]

Turn played. We've dropped to tenth in power... We're probably screaming to be attacked. Good thing Kilrah finishes the grocer in 2 turns, and can start on 2 turn curries or 1 turn cats after that. Once we get Rifles and Cavs we probably need to build a ton of these.

[Maniac Marshall]

Oh, and good thing that 3 of the 4 people who are lower than us in power are 3 of our 4 non PAT neighbors (Inac. Aztec, Byz), and that we've got a NAP and good relations with the one that isn't (India)

I'm leaving for the weekend in a few minutes. I know I probably won't hear from Ref until Sunday at this point. Carthage has requested a pause for after this turn, so we probably won't have a turn roll till Monday anyhow, but if it does, I'll grab it from the hotel.

I have to go to Atlanta in about 2 weeks for a wedding. Hopefully you're still with us out there Morgan, and can handle playing a couple of turns then?

[RefSteel]

Oh, and good thing that 3 of the 4 people who are lower than us in power are 3 of our 4 non PAT neighbors (Inac. Aztec, Byz), and that we've got a NAP and good relations with the one that isn't (India)

Heh. Good thing indeed. I'm now going to see if I can remember what I was going to write about before the Byz thing blew up.

I'm leaving for the weekend in a few minutes. I know I probably won't hear from Ref until Sunday at this point. Carthage has requested a pause for after this turn, so we probably won't have a turn roll till Monday anyhow, but if it does, I'll grab it from the hotel.

Gack - missed you, looks like. Well, I'll post here if I can in the next few minutes.

[RefSteel]

BTW: I do think you still get prerequisite or something like it discounts even if the techs are required.

Sweet! I was parroting something I read somewhere, and had never tested this.

Also, if we manage to pop an engineer... do we really want to use one of these on a GA? I'm probably being wonder obsessive, but... lot of great things we could use one of these for...

We can "worry" about an embarassment of riches if it happens, but ... any wonder in particular for which you would like to use an engineer? Note that as I mentioned above, I expect we'll have to run a merchant for a few turns, so there'd be a small chance of getting one of those too. (I'd definitely burn a merchant on a golden age in this case.) Note also that Smithsonian will have basically a 30% chance of getting an engineer (60% scientist, 10% artist) about six turns after the Kilrah GP if we don't "pollute" Smith's pool. (Sooner, of course, if we do.)

If we can live without the missionary and one of the workers, I can probably get the Uni done much faster. Let me know which you prefer. We're getting a Missionary from Teminck just in time to convert Savannah, and I can probably build one at PR after it finishes its worker and actually get it done faster. I'll look into it tomorrow.

We probably can't get along without more workers, especially since we'll be giving one away shortly. If it speeds things up to do without missionaries however, Fierias can build one for Savannah that will complete turn 144, and another for Marble Garden Zone that will complete turn 147. Note that Savannah will not be built until at least turn 142 (in-game signs show you already realize this, but it conflicts with the culture plan you posted up-thread).

Whoever plays the next turn, please note there is a barb warrior east of Pride Rock. Where he came from, I dono.[/quote]I said somewhere in this thread, parrotting unconfirmed comments again, that barbs can't spawn within 2 tiles of units/borders even in FoW. I was wrong. They can *at least* spawn 2 tiles away diagonally, and *might* just be able to spawn anywhere in FoW.[/quote]

From top of head; 100 beakers or 3 workers? the workers have it for me tbh.

I agree with Morgan.

I logged into the game (successfully!) but didn't change anything. Gotta go, but I'll hopefully be back sometime this weekend.