In the UK polling results Conservatives dropped low enough to lose almost every seat they hold. I know in actuality the percentage difference isn't that extreme, it's because of their first past the post system, but compare this to the USA. You've got two parties, with barely any chance of people swapping between them. There's no way to hold them accountable with your vote. The UK polls don't even mean that the Tories would do this badly in an actual election, but it does send a message to them.
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American Politics Discussion Thread
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(September 29th, 2022, 16:33)T-hawk Wrote: "Overturn" is subjective there. I can fire the partisanship just as much in the other direction by saying the Democrats were the ones who succeeded in overturning by cheating, and the Republicans were merely preventing that. Again, you can't prove Democrats cheated and in fact I think I did a good job proving the opposite. Saying the Republican trying to overturn the election to prevent is mentally twisted. Supporting the view that BELIEF of cheating is enough to overturn results is too low of a bar for overturning an election. I don't even know how you can debate this. (September 28th, 2022, 15:41)T-hawk Wrote: I believe Democrats cheated with no proof because it's obvious from human behavior. If they really believed Trump was that horrible, of course they would. The exact same logic Trump employed in his call with the GA Secretary of State. Thankfully there are Republicans that still value evidence and proof, even knowing they will likely pay for it with their career. (September 29th, 2022, 15:24)T-hawk Wrote:(September 29th, 2022, 14:26)Mjmd Wrote: Just to clarify T-Hawk you've used it in the past as justification for overturning the election. You've said, more than once, that the storming of the capital was justified. I don't know what other conclusion we are supposed to draw from that  ?
(September 29th, 2022, 16:33)T-hawk Wrote: I do not support the federal government changing the electors that PA nominated. Both on the grounds that I think there isn't enough known information to justify it, and that it is ultimately a state issue rather than federal, that authority to select the electors should reside with the state. However I do support Republicans attempting to do so, if they *do* believe there is sufficient information and that the federal government should have authority over PA's own procedures. Change "*do* believe" to "*can* prove" and there's not a word in this I disagree with. Darrell
September 29th, 2022, 19:26
(This post was last modified: September 29th, 2022, 19:27 by darrelljs.)
 (September 29th, 2022, 12:42)T-hawk Wrote: The fascinating part here is how every rebuttal against cheating has to throw in a qualifier. They didn't cheat organized. They didn't cheat widespread. They didn't cheat by enough margin. They didn't cheat more than Republicans. They didn't cheat because they changed the rules so it wasn't. They didn't cheat because the pandemic magically allowed changing all the procedures. But nobody is claiming they didn't try and get away with it at at least small scales, given such a huge and obvious motive. And so we don't and can't know if the small scales added up to anything significant. The unknowability is enough to justify the Jan 6th protesting. There is a huge gulf between "untrustworthy enough to protest" and "actually overturn", and that's what none of you are understanding. You know they weren't storming the capital to force a thorough investigation into the cheating allegations, right? People died, just not the one they wanted. Darrell
September 29th, 2022, 21:13
(This post was last modified: September 29th, 2022, 22:42 by Mjmd.)
So the basic argument is Trump loved his country and the constitution so much he was willing to violate laws and the constitution to save it despite no solid proof it needed saving? Not a great defense on the face of it and as I and other have argued not something that should happen. But I'm fine also destroying this argument because its pathetically easy to like the rest.
If Trump was willing to break laws and violate the constitution he obviously was willing to dedicate other resources right? I mean even if not his own money (which you can argue someone willing to overturn an election for the greater good would do as well), but surely when he sent pleas for support to his donors and they donated to a fund that was supposed to specifically go to legals fights concerning 2020 election integrity that money was used right? Oh wait he is still hoarding most of it, the little spent went to: his own properties, against some political opponents, some small amount to political allies, and some to his cronies. I mean he did spend $8.7m of it on the Jan 6th rally organizer, but ya still hoarding most of it. Turns out the RNC footed most of the bills for the election court cases along with a bit from the tax payers and small amount from a different Trump fund. This by the way is legally what is known as mens rae. IE showing mental state of knowing he was committing a crime. If Trump was truly trying to save our democracy even if he was on a wrong path of doing so, instead of hoarding the money and letting others pay for his efforts he would AT LEAST would have used the money he raised supposedly specifically for this purpose. So ya he tried to commit a coup and was scamming his supporters along the way. (September 29th, 2022, 19:26)darrelljs Wrote: You know they weren't storming the capital to force a thorough investigation into the cheating allegations, right? No, I don't know that. Remember how it got started. Trump's call to action was to "make your voices heard". That's nothing about overthrowing or couping or anything like that (and all the hearings found nothing remotely like any crime.) Entering a building is not the same as overthrowing the government. Mjmd failed to process that nuance a dozen times now, but I'd trust that you would. There was indeed some proposal of more time to investigate the election and PA specifically before certifying the electors. I vaguely remember it was initiated by Ted Cruz though I could be wrong; the details escape me at the moment and I can't figure out search terms precise enough to find it. We know the so-called election safeguards weren't enough to prevent cheating. The proof is that PA outright admitted it. PA deliberately commingled ballots that arrived past the deadline, which everyone knew would lean Democratic. No recount or audit or investigation can recover the count as it was supposed to be had the rules been followed. PA deliberately made that impossible. THAT is the violation of democracy, even if the protestors didn't all clearly have that in mind. The margin likely wasn't enough to swing PA, but that's a matter of opinion, and if you have a different opinion, then protesting is justified. The violence was regrettable, and I don't want to support or recommend that... but remember that America's very founding was an act of violent rebellion against an unjust authority. Soap, ballot, jury, ammo. The first three of those failed.
September 30th, 2022, 12:17
(This post was last modified: September 30th, 2022, 12:24 by Mjmd.)
I've long stated the coup attempt wasn't Jan 6th but the fake electors and pressuring the states to change their results. I have no clue where your statement is even coming from, but it sounds like an ad hominen.
Your long dead on ad nauseum on this whole PA thing. We've gone over it 10 ways to Sunday and you don't have a case. So you really want to overthrow the government with no proof and lacking any logical check? Are you an anarchist?
I've always found this quote on fight for liberty and its maintenance inspiring:
Quote:"You know that independence is purchased at the point of the bayonet. Know also that liberty is founded on good faith, and on the laws of honor, and that those who infringe upon these, are your only enemies" IE you are right that initial independence is purchased through force. But the foundations of liberty are founded on good faith and the laws of honor. That doesn't stop with the founding. There is no good faith or honor in your arguments. There is no logical good reason that has stood up. I've given good historical precedent of worse constitutional crises in America to hold up as litmus tests for worse cases where the parties involved didn't try to overthrow the government. There is certainly no honor or good faith in asking your supporters for money to fight election results and then keeping it..... (September 30th, 2022, 12:12)T-hawk Wrote:(September 29th, 2022, 19:26)darrelljs Wrote: You know they weren't storming the capital to force a thorough investigation into the cheating allegations, right? So you think "hang Mike Pence" wasn't meant literally? Darrell |
