[68] Miguelito's famous last words, and Amicalola's sighs

[Miguelito]

Just to write something.... Toku? (Because I now always pick what Plemo is playing) - not gonna get foreign trade anyways, so the bonus will remain
Boudicca....
Churchill?
Kublai?
Vikings! (I haven't really looked at the map, but there's water in the middle and around it, right?)
Or eh, Egypt? Too much on the nose?
Do I need a mining start? God what have I got myself into....

[civac2]

Didn't have you down as an AW type.

[Miguelito]

yeah, I'm also a bit surprised by myself.

[Amicalola]

I've wanted to play a game with Mig for a while, and missed the chance in PB90. Reporting for duty. (After the pick phase, that is )

Actually, I could comment on the starts, since we didn't talk about that at all in the other thread. Like the positions on the map.

[Miguelito]

Very glad to have you!
Please do comment on the starts! Revealed map is pretty weird, basically you want a compete dotmap before even picking.
For reference:

Final map:


Northeast:


Southeast:


Southwest:


Northwest:

NE sticks out as the only one with Hunting instead of grain. SW can improve the wheat a turn earlier than the others.
It's all very flat, NW seems to be the only start that could plausibly get a hill border city SW of the fur. That might make it the most favourable in my opinion.

If I post thoughts on picks, do you feel it's ok to respond?

General observations, not in any order:
- Commodore leaned into the theme and picked Boudicca, but PB50 was not won by the most successful axe rush but by Cornflakes claiming land and teaching ahead.
- Thoth has Rome with capital iron, of course that's scary. Everybody knows what's coming though, And the possibilities of whipping out an avalanche are limited.
- the map is significantly tighter than pb50 even, with just one backlines city for everyone and no islands. Although no big deserts to discourage peyote going at each other's throats directly
- for civ pick, founding on copper makes wheel kinda bad. Have to evaluate if one needs a mining start to avoid getting axe choked.
- what do we do to avoid the scout choke? Sit on grain with our own scout?
- for trait, Agg is certainly high on the list, in particular when facing other Aggs. Pro's economy bonus is going to remain relevant all game, and the combat bonus is more important than normal, although archers suffer from the lack of hills. It feels like something should be doable with Phi, but I don't know what yet. Imp may be relevant at only one point in the game to get a crucial border city first, but that might decide a game. Lukewarm on Cha, 2 early luxes are more or less guaranteed.
Could also make a Cornflakesian approach and pick Nebuchadnezzar because
- culture bombs like holy cities, SH, Oracle etc are very strong here. In general, key wonders might be more key than normal, if the game is to be won not by heaps of axes but rather gaining a tech edge.
- can someone explain to me in simple words why dog soldiers are considered bad? Sure they have trouble attacking a city, but in open field battle they should do excellently against their contemporaries, or not? I was entertaining Toku or even Churchill of NA, although I'm having second thoughts now considering the lack of hills.

[Charriu]

Dog soldiers even can take on praetorians better unlike normal axes.

[Mjmd]

Dog soldiers are basically opposite Vultures. IE they are better vs melee units but worse against everything else. Whereas Vultures suck vs axes but are better vs everything else.

[Miguelito]

Yeah,  that's what I thought,  and also what seems like the design intent,  but still people say they're bad, and I don't quite understand it.  For chariots you need spears anyways. Once thing where they might really look bad is against cats.  a pure axe attack of equal hammer value can stop axes/ cats ion defense,  but dogs lose against the cats.  And that might become a very real issue ion ethos game.

Essential techs here are Agri/ mining/ hunting/ fishing. Ideally we want two of them,  need to have a strong argument to drop onein favour of wheel. Agri/ hunting also counts as just one.  admittedly I haven't looked up tech costs , on the small map it might be easy to get everything quickly; fast BW is still critical.

Techs with two of the respects are:
America
Dutch
NA (fishing/hunting in CtH!)
China
Greece
Vikings
England
Khmer
Russia
Germany
Carthage
Portugal
Rome
Struck out are those that I find implausible,  plus Rome,  already picked by Thoth. Additionally, I would consider, for uniques, Japan (Stalin), Egypt, and Zulu.

Of these,  only 2 have Agri, while 4 have Hunting,  which would require the NE start. 
Atm I like the Stalin of Japan however as the cutest.  but I don't even know if those techs are viable even.

[Miguelito]

some more on starts:
- NE can build a city SW of the plains deer that either needs Cre or a quickly chopped wonder; up to 4 forests are available if we're willing to chop the deer. That's enough for Stonehenge with Ind, which would swamp a pretty big part of the map with culture. The bottleneck I think would be worker labour, so that's rather a plan for 3rd city. I see no other start with a similar 4 or even 3 forest central forward city.
- however I don't really see a satisfying 2nd city for NE, maybe E of furs, but that's not great either.
- An easier culture bomb would be a holy city, but I don't like any of the Myst civs. Maybe Inca for the 45h granary and C1 quechua (even if not Agg) - although all grain is already irrigated? India doesn't make much sense, and Maya is nixed by map.
- NE is also unique in that its gold is fairly safe from pillaging, compared to the others. It being backline however probably means that you settle it only late.
- SE meanwhile has a very strong 2nd city 2SW, sharing corn and claiming gold, furs, fish, and crab. If SW start doesn't steal it.
- NW has the PH second city, and would settle for gold only afterwards I assume
- I see no really great spot for 2nd city for SW, maybe S of sugar?

I increasingly feel like we should pick a start, based upon whether we want a hunting or agri civ (or Zulu ) and then a leader/civ package when the snake comes back. For starting techs, also mind that an agri civ will need hunting fairly soon to claim happy, while the NE start can neglect Agri until a possible conquest (and even then, if the farms stay unpillaged it is unnecessarsy?)

Possible packages:

• Stalin of Japan -> probably NW start, claim plainshill, chop Oracle into MC in cap?
  
• Nebuchadnezzar of.... Greece? NA? Egypt? Inca? -> NE/NW
  
• Tokugawa of NA, or Vikings, or Zulu -> NE start
  
• Churchill of NA -> NE
  
• Kublai Khan of Zulu -> SE
  
• Cyrus or Catherine of Egypt? -> SE
  

2 civs are already taken (Thoth has Rome and yuris Babylon). So we can take a grain start and be assured that a viable civ will come back. I'm more excited about the hunting civs, but don't see a convincing dotmap for the NE start yet.

[Amicalola]

SW has a plains floodplain. Not sure if that's intentional or not. Even without it, that start also gets an extra turn of improved wheat. Otherwise, I'll post some more detailed thoughts on picks and starts soon!