(December 19th, 2022, 09:38)yuris125 Wrote: Growing to 4 while working 2/1 forests? Sounds miserable
Well, my mistake working the forests. Amica noticed the oddity. We're actually going max hammers into the work boat, then worker->warrior->*something* to size 3->settler. This gets us a pretty quick settler but with only 1 worker in the empire. Honestly, we don't have much to improve, and we'll be a long ways from Bronze Working for chops. We could get the settler out a turn faster if we started it right after the warrior, but delaying a bit lets our worker complete an additional tile improvement while still getting to the other sheep (presumed 2nd city spot) in time to improve it.
There are quite a few Industrious civs in this game (and I haven't forgotten I owe you an opponent analysis), but I still kind of want to wonderwhore. We learned from PB64 that to keep up a usual level of Realms Beyond development, we need economy not tethered to standard cottage spam. Frankly, the land is too dry and brown. I don't have Financial to work coasts. I don't trust that non-Ind Spain can win the Great Lighthouse, especially since I suspect a bunch of people will be trying to imitate Amicalola this go round. So I would like to be in continual golden age. Simple. Also, I would like a high powered shrine. And maybe to try out this newfangled monk economy everyone was telling me about in the wrap up of PB64.
So I'm glad we found marble.
I've been convinced by the people singing the castle's praises. One hopes that we'll have more foreign trade this game, since there's no way PB69 devolves into global war. Plus, given how money-starved we were last game, I imagine any little bit of commerce helps.
Superdeath as Mansa Musa (Fin/Ind) of Sumeria
Pindicator as Pacal II (Fin/Exp) of Mali
Bing as Victoria (Fin/Imp) of Carthage
Gavagai as De Gaulle (Ind/Cha) of Rome
Magic Science as Tokugawa (Agg/Pro) of Khmer
Commodore as Saladin (Spi/Pro) of Germany
naufragar as Montezuma (Agg/Spi) of Spain
Ginger as Joao II (Imp/Exp) of Celts
Well, let's get to it. In the spirit of this zany, wacky, random game, I have randomized my opponent analysis! Underneath each player+combo might come any mash-up of player or combo analysis or picture! I've sacrificed some randomness by keeping the leader+civs together. (I will unscramble it in spoilers in the next posts to save brain melt.) Since the cast of PB69 is roughly the same as '64, I was stumped on how I could make the player analysis fresh. And then it slowly dawned on me that over a long and sordid Civ-playing career, I have upset the vast majority of this field. So I've whipped out my handy Grudge-o-meter and will measure the Vendetta Index of each player, that is: how likely are they to harbor automatic hostility against me for misdeeds in the past.
Let's begin.
Superdeath as Mansa Musa (Fin/Ind) of Sumeria
What a combo! Sacrificing a bit (but not much) staying power for early game speed, [Leader] isn't quite as overpowered as he is in BtS, but on our random map where food is hard to come by and commerce is scarce? Yeah, this leader rocks. And the civ! The civ! [Civilization] is probably the most flexible in this field. Nobody but nobody wants to attack them, and before you know it, they've reached the middle game and are making more hammers and commerce than you. [Unique Unit] is something I've fought against in the early game, and I really don't want to do it again. It might look like a defensive unit, but in one pitboss [Player under discussion] on a team with [Player in this game not under discussion] used [Unique Unit] to rush [Player also in this game but also not under discussion], so I know [Player] can use [Unit] effectively.
Danger! Danger! Grudge-o-meter readings off the charts! Vendetta Index at record highs! [Player] is a solid player, if still getting used to the slower pace of 24hr turn pitboss, and boy oh boy does he think I'm loony. I mean, I sure hope he read my thread or at last the lurker thread for PB64. Otherwise, he'll remain convinced I'm a Martian. Even granting that some of my decisions made sense, I'd bet good money he's looking for an excuse to knife me this game.
Vendetta Index:
Pindicator as Pacal II (Fin/Exp) of Mali
Finally we get to a normal power-level combo. Not bad, but about where I'd expect a random roll to be. I can't remember a single game where [Leader] has been picked, and I'm too lazy to look. The traits give no early speed boost. They don't really inform a late game economy. I'd describe them as flexible. Each of the two traits is thought to do one main thing, but they actually come with a bunch of add-on side-effects. Enough to form a coherent gameplan? Likely not, but this is a combo that I would enjoy puzzling out. [Civ] on the other hand is vanilla and strong. Who doesn't like an unstoppable unique unit? In [Player]'s hands, [Unique Unit] will find a victim, I am sure of it. But more than that, [Unique Unit] has an incredibly long shelf-life, enabling a strong, cheap unit practically forever.
I don't think [Player] hates my guts, but he certainly has cause to. Another whom I've killed, but [Player] made it utterly unprofitable for me and caused my eventual death at the hands of a third party. He's micro-obsessive if a little on the builder-y side but has slaughtered players near and far using anything from galleys to Numidians. He definitely thinks I shoot from the hip, although I don't sense as much personal animus. Definitely won't be quick to demilitarize our border after our last encounter.
Vendetta Index:
Bing as Victoria (Fin/Imp) of Carthage
[Leader] is one of only two leaders in this field sporting the best trait in Civ4. I'll leave you to figure out which. He's lightning fast, which isn't exactly the best on a random map when you get to be fastest to...unirrigated plains. On the other hand, land is land. I would never be unhappy to play as [Leader]. [Civ] is rough. The starting techs are atrocious (but somehow still better than mine ) but the unique are interesting if not good. Commodore has demonstrated how to use [Unique Building], and I think those are pretty nifty. [Unique Unit] is cute. And I could see it get use. It's just niche.
[Player] is, sadly, the weakest in this field by a stretch. He'll be dedlurked by [Player], who is excellent, but I wonder if [Original Player] will give [Lurking Player] enough info in his reports to let [Lurker] really aid him. This is a player whom I've killed before, but it was a fluky thing that I don't think warrants a grudge. On the other hand, I'm not always sure of [Player]'s motivations. They can seem a bit random to me. One gets the sense that he plays the turn as he gets it and doesn't plan too much. Well, that could be good or bad for us.
Vendetta Index:
Gavagai as De Gaulle (Ind/Cha) of Rome
Eh. This combo doesn't light my fire. I don't think [Leader] is bad exactly; he just needs a gameplan. (I swear, one of these days I'll run [Leader] of America and have the most fun ever.) He'll be spikey enough that up through the midgame, I doubt anybody really targets him. We'll see if that's sufficient. [Civ] I do not like. The [Unique Unit] has some interesting uses. It'll see use and is better than the vanilla version, so thumbs up I guess. The [Unique Building] actively encourages you to make bad choices, I think. Even with the price reduction in CtH, I am not a fan. I know others are, but it's just icky. On the other hand, given how marginal the land will be in this game, maybe [Unique Buildings] are just what the doctor ordered. My land could certainly use a couple.
Oooh boy. I suspect we've got ourself an off the charts reading on the Grudge-o-meter. I didn't kill him, but boy did I derail the trajectory of his game last time. [Player] is one cold, canny operator, so I don't think he goes berserk the moment he sees my scout or anything, but I wouldn't be surprised if, when choosing between me and an equivalent target, history puts her thumb on the scale and makes me Victim #1. Scary, scary player.
Vendetta Index:
Magic Science as Tokugawa (Agg/Pro) of Khmer
What a combo! This is an absolute monster of a combo, good enough that, if memory serves, it gets chosen in snake-pick games, let alone randomly. It's the fastest "good" combo in the field, and given the amount of water there is on this map, it comes pre-installed with an economy. [Unique Unit] is just the sexiest unique in the game. Yes, yes, the "math" would tell you it's "not that great," but only nerds pay attention to numbers. Swoop across the sands with a horde of these and trample your enemies to dust. (I've never actually played an MP game with [Civ] but I'd like to.)
If the Grudge-o-meter was able to give a 0 reading, I'd be getting it from [Player]. We've never had any real conflict; we've fought against mutual enemies in two different games now. I think that he thinks that I can be reasonable, which makes him unique in this field. Everybody else thinks I'm a nutjob and maybe [Player] does too...
Vendetta Index:
Commodore as Saladin (Spi/Pro) of Germany
What a combo! By my reckoning, this is the best economic combo in a game full of excellent economies. The leader is a touch on the slow side, sure, but he basically doesn't care about tiles. He gets commerce from anywhere and hammers for cheap. And the civ, well, I might have a little experience, and let me tell you [Unique Building] is completely freaking busted. It carries the early-mid game economy while also providing massive but understated defensive potential through...intelligence. (It's hard for me to anonymize this.) The [Unique Unit] I've actually come around on. It has an amazing use case: hammer for hammer it's one of the best anti-catapult weapons out there. It also has a long shelf-life. If you don't research its upgrade (as I didn't in '64), you keep a high-ish strength, cheap unit buildable practically forever.
I haven't played against [Player] much. I did attack and do some nasty damage, but our game was over at that point, and everybody conceded shortly after. I don't think there's much vendetta here, honestly.
Vendetta Index:
Ginger as Joao II (Imp/Exp) of Celts
Hahaha, a leader as bad as mine! Better or worse can be debated, but definitely in the same tier. There's the tiniest bit of economic help, so bully for that, but [Leader] just does not spark joy. All that said, [Player] plays the hand he's dealt, so I expect him to make use of leader in good faith. (I expect Theocracy swaps enabling Drill 3 crossbows or some other silliness.) As [Player] himself said once long ago, [Civ] is just techs and a pretty color. There's a bit more to it than that now in CtH, given that the tech for [Unique Unit] is imminently bulbable. In fact, I would love to try a bulbing strategy with [Civ] in order to unlock [Unique Unit] dozens of turns before anyone has an equivalent and just go ham. We'll see if that's in the cards.
The player would score a max on my Vendetta Index even if we had never played a game together. This guy likes playing Russian Roulette with five of the six chambers loaded. I've killed him once before, but I don't think he holds a grudge over that. I get the sense that he doesn't respect me at all. I don't mean in a personal way; I just think that he thinks I'm a candy ass. Not sure why I think that or why he thinks that. I just think that he thinks that. Hey! A decently fresh opinion on [Player]! It's a Christmas miracle.
Vendetta Index:
And lastly and not randomized: Montezuma as Montezuma (Agg/Spi) of Spain
(This is a very clever joke that no one's going to get.)
This combo is hot garbage. There's no speed here, nor is there any economic help. The Uniques are things that I have literally never built in my MP career. The techs put you as far from both Animal Husbandry and Bronze Working as is possible, and for our start we need both. Spi+Myst is incentivized to go for a religion, but we don't have the beakers for it. Agg wants a standing army, but we can't afford the hammers even given the gold savings. It's a rubix cube made of rusty nails. Anyway here's the plan: we'll try to be religious and artsy, while keeping enough of an Aggressive-promoted defense to deter neighbors. We'll try to chain together Golden Ages and wonders to boost our Great People output and leap all the way up to Military Tradition for Conquistadors. At which point, we'll try to conquer the world. It's not a good plan, and I'll leap at any easier opportunities, but this is all I can think of that Monte of Spain does better than any of the other combos.
Vendetta Index Rating: 0. I am a chalice of peace, unswayed by petty personal grievances. So much so that I'll need to remind myself of it at every turn. I want to imitate Ginger's gameplan from PB64 without the death feud with Commodore. Remind me over and over: I am a man of peace.
OpAnalysis unscrambled below (pics unscrambled too). Don't click if you want to puzzle it out yourself!
Superdeath as Mansa Musa (Fin/Ind) of Sumeria
What a combo! By my reckoning, this is the best economic combo in a game full of excellent economies. The leader is a touch on the slow side, sure, but he basically doesn't care about tiles. He gets commerce from anywhere and hammers for cheap. And the civ, well, I might have a little experience, and let me tell you [Unique Building] is completely freaking busted. It carries the early-mid game economy while also providing massive but understated defensive potential through...intelligence. (It's hard for me to anonymize this.) The [Unique Unit] I've actually come around on. It has an amazing use case: hammer for hammer it's one of the best anti-catapult weapons out there. It also has a long shelf-life. If you don't research its upgrade (as I didn't in '64), you keep a high-ish strength, cheap unit buildable practically forever.
The player would score a max on my Vendetta Index even if we had never played a game together. This guy likes playing Russian Roulette with five of the six chambers loaded. I've killed him once before, but I don't think he holds a grudge over that. I get the sense that he doesn't respect me at all. I don't mean in a personal way; I just think that he thinks I'm a candy ass. Not sure why I think that or why he thinks that. I just think that he thinks that. Hey! A decently fresh opinion on [Player]! It's a Christmas miracle. [5/5]
Pindicator as Pacal II (Fin/Exp) of Mali
What a combo! Sacrificing a bit (but not much) staying power for early game speed, [Leader] isn't quite as overpowered as he is in BtS, but on our random map where food is hard to come by and commerce is scarce? Yeah, this leader rocks. And the civ! The civ! [Civilization] is probably the most flexible in this field. Nobody but nobody wants to attack them, and before you know it, they've reached the middle game and are making more hammers and commerce than you. [Unique Unit] is something I've fought against in the early game, and I really don't want to do it again. It might look like a defensive unit, but in one pitboss [Player under discussion] on a team with [Player in this game not under discussion] used [Unique Unit] to rush [Player also in this game but also not under discussion], so I know [Player] can use [Unit] effectively.
I don't think [Player] hates my guts, but he certainly has cause to. Another whom I've killed, but [Player] made it utterly unprofitable for me and caused my eventual death at the hands of a third party. He's micro-obsessive if a little on the builder-y side but has slaughtered players near and far using anything from galleys to Numidians. He definitely thinks I shoot from the hip, although I don't sense as much personal animus. Definitely won't be quick to demilitarize our border after our last encounter. [4/5]
Bing as Victoria (Fin/Imp) of Carthage
What a combo! This is an absolute monster of a combo, good enough that, if memory serves, it gets chosen in snake-pick games, let alone randomly. It's the fastest "good" combo in the field, and given the amount of water there is on this map, it comes pre-installed with an economy. [Unique Unit] is just the sexiest unique in the game. Yes, yes, the "math" would tell you it's "not that great," but only nerds pay attention to numbers. Swoop across the sands with a horde of these and trample your enemies to dust. (I've never actually played an MP game with [Civ] but I'd like to.)
[Player] is, sadly, the weakest in this field by a stretch. He'll be dedlurked by [Player], who is excellent, but I wonder if [Original Player] will give [Lurking Player] enough info in his reports to let [Lurker] really aid him. This is a player whom I've killed before, but it was a fluky thing that I don't think warrants a grudge. On the other hand, I'm not always sure of [Player]'s motivations. They can seem a bit random to me. One gets the sense that he plays the turn as he gets it and doesn't plan too much. Well, that could be good or bad for us. [3/5]
Gavagai as De Gaulle (Ind/Cha) of Rome
Finally we get to a normal power-level combo. Not bad, but about where I'd expect a random roll to be. I can't remember a single game where [Leader] has been picked, and I'm too lazy to look. The traits give no early speed boost. They don't really inform a late game economy. I'd describe them as flexible. Each of the two traits is thought to do one main thing, but they actually come with a bunch of add-on side-effects. Enough to form a coherent gameplan? Likely not, but this is a combo that I would enjoy puzzling out. [Civ] on the other hand is vanilla and strong. Who doesn't like an unstoppable unique unit? In [Player]'s hands, [Unique Unit] will find a victim, I am sure of it. But more than that, [Unique Unit] has an incredibly long shelf-life, enabling a strong, cheap unit practically forever.
Oooh boy. I suspect we've got ourself an off the charts reading on the Grudge-o-meter. I didn't kill him, but boy did I derail the trajectory of his game last time. [Player] is one cold, canny operator, so I don't think he goes berserk the moment he sees my scout or anything, but I wouldn't be surprised if, when choosing between me and an equivalent target, history puts her thumb on the scale and makes me Victim #1. Scary, scary player.[5/5]
Magic Science as Tokugawa (Agg/Pro) of Khmer
[Yeah, I punted. I didn't have a good idea for a Pacino for Magic Science. ]
Eh. This combo doesn't light my fire. I don't think [Leader] is bad exactly; he just needs a gameplan. (I swear, one of these days I'll run [Leader] of America and have the most fun ever.) He'll be spikey enough that up through the midgame, I doubt anybody really targets him. We'll see if that's sufficient. [Civ] I do not like. The [Unique Unit] has some interesting uses. It'll see use and is better than the vanilla version, so thumbs up I guess. The [Unique Building] actively encourages you to make bad choices, I think. Even with the price reduction in CtH, I am not a fan. I know others are, but it's just icky. On the other hand, given how marginal the land will be in this game, maybe [Unique Buildings] are just what the doctor ordered. My land could certainly use a couple.
I haven't played against [Player] much. I did attack and do some nasty damage, but our game was over at that point, and everybody conceded shortly after. I don't think there's much vendetta here, honestly.
Commodore as Saladin (Spi/Pro) of Germany
Hahaha, a leader as bad as mine! Better or worse can be debated, but definitely in the same tier. There's the tiniest bit of economic help, so bully for that, but [Leader] just does not spark joy. All that said, [Player] plays the hand he's dealt, so I expect him to make use of leader in good faith. (I expect Theocracy swaps enabling Drill 3 crossbows or some other silliness.) As [Player] himself said once long ago, [Civ] is just techs and a pretty color. There's a bit more to it than that now in CtH, given that the tech for [Unique Unit] is imminently bulbable. In fact, I would love to try a bulbing strategy with [Civ] in order to unlock [Unique Unit] dozens of turns before anyone has an equivalent and just go ham. We'll see if that's in the cards.
If the Grudge-o-meter was able to give a 0 reading, I'd be getting it from [Player]. We've never had any real conflict; we've fought against mutual enemies in two different games now. I think that he thinks that I can be reasonable, which makes him unique in this field. Everybody else thinks I'm a nutjob and maybe [Player] does too...
Ginger as Joao II (Imp/Exp) of Celts
[Leader] is the only leader in this field sporting the best trait in Civ4. I'll leave you to figure out which. He's lightning fast, which isn't exactly the best on a random map when you get to be fastest to...unirrigated plains. On the other hand, land is land. I would never be unhappy to play as [Leader]. [Civ] is rough. The starting techs are atrocious (but somehow still better than mine ) but the unique are interesting if not good. Commodore has demonstrated how to use [Unique Building], and I think those are pretty nifty. [Unique Unit] is cute. And I could see it get use. It's just niche.
Danger! Danger! Grudge-o-meter readings off the charts! Vendetta Index at record highs! [Player] is a solid player, if still getting used to the slower pace of 24hr turn pitboss, and boy oh boy does he think I'm loony. I mean, I sure hope he read my thread or at last the lurker thread for PB64. Otherwise, he'll remain convinced I'm a Martian. Even granting that some of my decisions made sense, I'd bet good money he's looking for an excuse to knife me this game. [5/5]
You're right. I guess I just so associate Mali with forges that Mansa Musa became Industrious in my head. I'm too lazy to change the analysis above, but I guess I'll add here that Spiritual is not a trait that Superdeath is going to love. It takes a bit too much micro, which bores him. Annoyingly, it might incentivize yet another player to chase religion, which is not something I want them to do...
The rapid turn pace combined with hectic holidays means that I've fallen behind. And things have happened even this early into the game!
First off, proof that I put myself at a disadvantage playing on this piece of garbage laptop:
Answer honestly, can you see the tribal village in the screenshot above? If Sid didn't circle the tile, would you have just ran on by? I certainly would've.
But thanks, Sid. I popped the hut and got a scout! It's not a tech (which could've solved all our starting woes) but a scout! I'm thrilled. The more info we can get about this land the better.
So let's explore:
It's paradise! Or what passes for paradise on these random tectonic map scripts. Two additional food resources (although counting plains hill sheep as a food resource is a little generous...) plus a river! Oh it's delightful.
I'm remembering Gavagai's chastisement at the end of PB64 about how nobody built an economy. I'll try to cottage this river in his honor, but some ancient instinct tells me that it's better to first grow on farms out to the appropriate size and then pave over the farms with cottages. No idea where that instinct is coming from. I could do the math to back it up, but math is for the hares, not the hawks.
Victory already guaranteed. Overpowered Citadels, here I come. Yes, yes, the land around the stone if bone-dry and foodless, and can't even be farmed before Biology, but those are just details.
It looks like I'm the only one going for a work boat start:
And from the looks of the rival MFG, it looks like very many people don't have plains hill starts. By turn 15, I'll have an improved coastal fish (+5f) and a worker. For people without a 2 hammer city spot, they'll just be finishing their worker, so I'll be +5f ahead. Very nice. Now they could still catch up by having better resources than my sheep or cow, having techs that enable them to get to work immediately without sitting on their hands, any number of things could happen. But, expecting that we'll have a head start on most of the field, how do we want to spend it? I'll try to think of something.
With the caveat that colors are my nemesis, this sure looks like Ginger+Miguelito of Joao of Celtia. Miguelito has recently been knocking me about in Civforum PB90 (the game that time forgot) and Ginger hates my guts and would kill for some revenge for my part in how PB64 went for him.
They're piloting a fast leader who gets easy access to hill mobility. And would you look at that. A whole bunch of hills stretching from them to me.
It's past my bedtime. I'll try to analyze later. Mostly just wanted to do my part to keep up this amazing two-turn-a-day pace we've been rocking. Miguelito and Ginger have both been logging in a bunch and playing long turns. Odds that they've spotted me, either with a scout on the fringe as I have or with a hut map pop? I'll move to make contact next turn. Want their graphs.
Magic and Bing got techs worth 0 soldier points. Comm popped a hut tech also worth 0 soldier points. C&D TBD.
(December 22nd, 2022, 23:51)Mjmd Wrote: You know not everyone it always out for revenge over the last game played.
If you say so.
Magic Science (of Khmer) and Bing (of Carthage) both teched Agriculture. Only thing that fits the time frame. No way of knowing if Commodore's hut pop was Agri, Fishing, or Myst.
Joao is a very fast leader. I wonder what one does with that speed on a map this poor. They could rush, sure, but then they get even more crappy land. I wonder if they'll make a bid for Stonehenge. I'd like both 'henge and Oracle, which is...ambitious, but I'm determined to do something besides mass build Agg Axes this game. Commodore as Spiritual and having gotten a free tech is another competitor, as is, crucially, Gavagai the Ind/Cha guy. I could see Superdeath going for Stonehenge, but unless he tries something wild, I'm not as convinced he'll plan out a build that beats one of the others mentioned.
Amica noticed the oddity. We're actually going max hammers into the work boat, then worker->warrior->*something* to size 3->settler. This gets us a pretty quick settler but with only 1 worker in the empire. Honestly, we don't have much to improve, and we'll be a long ways from Bronze Working for chops. We could get the settler out a turn faster if we started it right after the warrior, but delaying a bit lets our worker complete an additional tile improvement while still getting to the other sheep (presumed 2nd city spot) in time to improve it.
Also, I would like a high powered shrine. 
) but the unique are interesting if not good. Commodore has demonstrated how to use [Unique Building], and I think those are pretty nifty. [Unique Unit] is cute. And I could see it get use. It's just niche.
![[Image: al-pacino-glengarry-glen-ross.gif]](https://media.tenor.com/L1V-CSLLW38AAAAd/al-pacino-glengarry-glen-ross.gif)
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You're right. I guess I just so associate Mali with forges that Mansa Musa became Industrious in my head. I'm too lazy to change the analysis above, but I guess I'll add here that Spiritual is not a trait that Superdeath is going to love. It takes a bit too much micro, which bores him. Annoyingly, it might incentivize yet another player to chase religion, which is not something I want them to do...
Two additional food resources (although counting plains hill sheep as a food resource is a little generous...) plus a river! Oh it's delightful. 
