A new mod enters the ring - Introducing "Close to Home"

[Charriu]

So to summarize the essential changes from Gavagai's proposal are the following:

- Christo Redentor available on Mass Media instead of Radio
- Advanced Flight no longer requires Satellites
- Jet Fighters require Advanced Flight and Rocketry

Since we are touching the modern era. I remember that people said that nukes have too much range back in PB59. To that extend I would like to turn back to my naval changes, but only do the following:

Submarine: Cargo Space: 1 (can carry Scout, Explorer, Missionary, Spy, or Great People)
Attack Submarine: Cargo Space for 3 missiles

Basically switching the cargos of the two Submarines to delay the additional range for nukes provided by Submarine. Or should I remove the missile cargo on Submarines at all?

[Ginger*]

Honestly I like that last change, it felt weird to me that U-boat sprite would carry the nukes but the Virginia-class model would transport VIPs
Speaking of… we really need to play a medieval start game

[Gavagai]

So to summarize the essential changes from Gavagai's proposal are the following:

- Christo Redentor available on Mass Media instead of Radio
- Advanced Flight no longer requires Satellites
- Jet Fighters require Advanced Flight and Rocketry

Since we are touching the modern era. I remember that people said that nukes have too much range back in PB59. To that extend I would like to turn back to my naval changes, but only do the following:

Submarine: Cargo Space: 1 (can carry Scout, Explorer, Missionary, Spy, or Great People)
Attack Submarine: Cargo Space for 3 missiles

Basically switching the cargos of the two Submarines to delay the additional range for nukes provided by Submarine. Or should I remove the missile cargo on Submarines at all?

I like all of it.

[Gavagai]

Honestly I like that last change, it felt weird to me that U-boat sprite would carry the nukes but the Virginia-class model would transport VIPs
Speaking of… we really need to play a medieval start game

I am actually thinking of a medieval start game with space and culture off. The point of the game is to have an opportunity to dive deeply into late-game warfare.

[Ginger*]

Honestly I like that last change, it felt weird to me that U-boat sprite would carry the nukes but the Virginia-class model would transport VIPs
Speaking of… we really need to play a medieval start game

I am actually thinking of a medieval start game with space and culture off. The point of the game is to have an opportunity to dive deeply into late-game warfare.

I would argue there should be a passive victory condition to prevent a huge suffer game if the military situation stalemates—maybe Culture but Sistine is banned? Def no space race

[Gavagai]

Honestly I like that last change, it felt weird to me that U-boat sprite would carry the nukes but the Virginia-class model would transport VIPs
Speaking of… we really need to play a medieval start game

I am actually thinking of a medieval start game with space and culture off. The point of the game is to have an opportunity to dive deeply into late-game warfare.

I would argue there should be a passive victory condition to prevent a huge suffer game if the military situation stalemates—maybe Culture but Sistine is banned? Def no space race

Maybe time victory with the length of the game shortened? I actually recently had a single-player game where I won a culture victory without building Sistine on T304. Although, it happened one turn before AI was able to raze all my three cities, so probably not a good counter-point

[Mjmd]

I recommend starting a general thread for discussion on a specific proposed game.

As far as late game changes, it seems like people are in agreement and I have no opinions.

[Charriu]

For the final version I would also like to bring up the American UB. It just feels pushed. Normally I would just wait for someone to bust it before brining it back up, but since this is the last version I wanted to bring it up.

Just as a comparison lets take The Great Wall. I will argue the research boost of library is equal ish to the actual bonus on The Great Wall for one city. I've certainly built The Great Wall JUST for the great people points (I've done this with other wonders as well). Assume stone Great Wall costs 100 hammers and you can only build it it one city. Basically what I'm trying to say is that America gets to build a wonder worth of great people generation in each city. Generating and using great people is a key feature throughout civ4 and the America UB just makes it trivial in a way no other UB does to whatever its doing.

I'll also bring up the obvious comparison in forum. It absolutely demolishes the effect of the forum on an earlier building.

Turning back to the American UB now that PB65 is at T150. You are right that America can "build a wonder worth of great people generation in each city". But that bonus does not materialize in every city. Let's say you have 15 cities with Carnegie Library and 3 of those cities specialized towards generating Great People. Yes you have 15 CPLs, but they only matter in 3 cities. Especially later when the cost for each Great People becomes bigger and bigger the effect of CPL diminishes somewhat. Therefore the big effect for CPL is in the beginning, where it allows you to generate a Great Person of your choosing.
You are right that CPL is better then forum in the beginning, but that comparison isn't totally fair. First America starts with Fishing/Agriculture and Rome with Fishing/Mining. I would argue Rome has the slightly better starting techs. Next Rome has the UU Praetorian and America the UU Minuteman. I think that the Praetorian is the better UU as you get more value out of it and at an earlier stage. Looking at the whole picture I don't think it's bad that the forum is weaker then the carnegie public library. I would even say it's better this way as it gives America something worthwhile.

Now what do the numbers say. So far we have 3 players playing America in the recent PBs. pindicator in PB65, GKC in PB66 and Charriu in PB67. I have to be careful as PB65 and PB66 are still running. pindicator did not pair America with CRE or PHI. From what I have seen the building is far from overpowered in this scenario. It allows you to be more lazy with GPP generation, but it does not massively increase you amount of Great Persons. The same could be said for GKC in PB66, who paired it with CRE.
Now PB67 is an interesting case. There Charriu stacked all bonuses together (America, CRE and PHI). Unfortunately that game ended prematurely, but I had plans laid out until T100. I would have generated 4 Great People until then and I wrote about that back in my thread:

Now I know you all want to know my T100 plans for Great People. According to my plans I have and would have spawned Great Scientists at the following dates:

T55
T62
T77
T85

Now you may think 'OMG the American UB is overpowered in giving you 4 scientist this early'. Well because of that I did two additionally runs through my excel one were the UB would only give 1GPP and another were it gives 0GPP aka a generic civ.

With 1GPP I get the following turn numbers

T56
T64
T81
T92

The last date is a bit questionable as I would have probably planned everything a bit differently, but the first 3 are pretty accurate. As you can see they are not that far away from the 2 GPP version. Now let's look at 0 GPP aka a generic civ.

T58
T66 (T76 without changing plans a bit aka focusing this scientist)
T85
T98

Now this sim was a bit harder as I would most likely have changed things a lot more due to the Scientists appearing later and needing to work more specialists. Most importantly though the first two scientists aren't that far away from their actual appearance (3 turns and 4 turns later).
My conclusion here is that the American UB isn't overpowering this playstyle that much. The reason I was able to turn those scientist out so quickly is mainly because I skipped Wheel and Pottery and because I'm PHI focussing on early specialists. I would even go so far to say that America isn't necessary for my strategy. In a future PB I would probably try the same with a different civ. I think the true strength of the American UB is not in popping Great Scientists early on but rather creating other Great People sooner like a Prophet for a religious play or an Engineer from a single forge based engineer specialist. If all breaks down and people still think the UB is overpowered and unbalanced I would rather go down to 1 GPP, which still allows for these kinds of play but a bit weaker.

Another option to decreasing it towards 1GPP is to replace a different building, but honestly I don't know which one. Courthouse is already replaced so often and another synergy with ORG. Market with PRO feels a bit late. Lighthouse is out for the same synergy with ORG. Granary would be the same as library just earlier. Walls might be something as it's off the usual path. Aqueduct might be the most appropriate as it's a bit later then Writing and pairs with a different trait EXP.

My proposal would be the following:

1. Leave it as is
2. Decrease towards 1GPP
3. Replace the aqueduct instead of the library.

[Ginger*]

What if we nerf it to 1GPP but also give it a minor cost reduction like 15-20h?
Although that kind just makes it boring

What if we take a page out of the Madrassa book and make it a Market replacement that lets you hire one or two Engineers?
Currency is late enough that you can’t lock any wonders that PHI with Forges or Mids couldn’t reliably contest.

Or just make it a standard but much cheaper (100h?) Market bc America-trade-capitalism thematic

[Tarkeel]

Honestly, I'm more worried that the "blank" GPP points are confusing, although free GPP are pretty powerful. I'm more in favor of something like a Harbor with merchant slots or Library/Market with Engineer slots.