[spoiler] Q Returns to Quest Once More

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[Edit: Password: 'Quest']

So, as we wait for civs and a map, some thoughts.

Going into this, my main motivation is not to win, but to have another EITB game. Given I'm playing, I'd like to put on a good show, but I'm not focused on winning - which is good, as I'm not prepared to put in a ton of effort! I've got a lot going on in real life, and so I was a little reluctant to play in the first place. So I won't be simming, or C&Ding, I'll just take each turn as they come and try to make good moves each turn.

With that being said, what sort of civ do I want to play? I don't want an absolute powerhouse (Clan, Lanun), or something that's going to be too complicated (Amurites, Kuriotates). Instead, I want something with a clear gameplan to execute on, that's neither too weak nor too strong. That makes me think Elves (try out the small buff?), Calabim (check if they're overpowered now?), or something similar.

I also have one other thing I want to try out - big red himself! I need to check settings and how they work, but if I'm offered Lanun or another early powerhouse, I think I'll try a Hyborem rush. (Though I worry the late-start settings we have might make this (e.g. bulbs) harder.)

Worth noting that starting late does make quite a big difference. Without meaning to, we're stumbling into another Discovery start. Much as for the last one, I think that the ones who most benefit from that are those that can REX and build (Clan, Rhoanna, etc.) and not the ones who develop slow or have strong late-game advantages (Amurites, Ljolsofar, etc.). I think the strength of tiles in FFH2 means that a large empire is much stronger than a smaller one, even if its reached late-game composition.

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Oof, tough decision in some ways, easy in others.

Jonas Endain is, in my opinion, the best civ for a Discovery-esque start, with easy access to Warrens, EXP, and less impact from his BAR trait all benefiting an already strong leader. Rhoanna has to be close behind on REXing with EXP, FIN to keep the economy going, and a decent worldspell.

Arendal Phaedra, by contrast, is a slow powerhouse. My experience with Discovery makes me inclined to believe that the Snowball favours those who can get it going and big as fast as possible, over those for whom the late start makes their proximity to their late-game toys easier. CRE is nice, but less so when you're a tech away from building culture. And one of the big pluses of building on forests is the ability to save beakers towards Mining.

On the other hand, I literally called out Ljolsofar (and was thinking of Arendal) for a reason: they're simple, they can be strong, and they don't have the best record (which reduces pressure). We even buffed them which gives a playtesting rationale to give them a spin. And they do benefit from Discovery - Archery means we can pick up Gilden in a pinch, we can immediately start research on FotL, then head to Trade and Priesthood afterwards, and Godking flattens the lack of early production bonuses.

Besides, I won with Jonas last time - I'm not interested in repeating that game.

So, I guess I'll wait for the start to confirm, but I'm 90% sure we're taking Arendal Phaedra.

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Predictions:

Miguelito:
Varn Gosam of the Malakim
Garrim Gyr of the Luchuirp
Flauros of the Calabim

Brian:
Arturus Thorne of the Khazad
Enion Logos of the Elohim
Mahala of the Dovellio

Auro:
Faeryl Viconia of the Svartalfar
Falamar of the Lanun
Averax the Cambion of the Sheaim

Bing:
Auric Ulvin of the Illians
Shekinah of the Sidar
Dain the Caswallawn of the Amurites

In order:

• I suspect Mig will try Calabim for a similar reason to me - they're strong, they've been buffed recently, and they want to see how they go. Runner up might be Luchuirp, which would be more interesting but I can't see it. Varn seems too weak on a faster start, especially with FIN gone.
  
• Brian's is a lot harder, but I'm going to say Khazad simply because they're among the most interesting civs to play. They also benefit a lot from a later start - I believe Auro led them to a convincing second last time. Elohim is close, and I think they're quite buffed right now, but they're also a bit boring. Mahala seems weaker, though to be fair, having EXP can't be discounted.
  

• Auro might surprise me with a more interesting Svartalfar or Sheaim (if so, my bets on Sheaim to play with vault toys plus use Averax's great traits) but if he's going for a win, the Lanun seem like an easy bet. Starting with Fishing and Godking means they're even faster, and they can race towards FT and then just dominate technologically. Scary player, scary civ. At least it's the (imo) weaker of the two leaders. One to watch out for (and then do nothing as Iron RAI chariots fork five cities and run all over me).
  
• I don't have a sense of Bing, so I went for the most interesting of these, and the one that people instinctively think will benefit from a late-game start. For my money, Shekinah or Auric are more powerful, though. Amurites simply don't come properly online until Govannon (or Firebows, but I don't think they're very strong in EitB or against humans), and have no early game traits to smooth that long transition.
  

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Oi, where's my lurker posts?

As mentioned in the thread, it's a bit difficult to discuss techs when we've got a good idea what civs we have. I hope I haven't been biased too much by the importance that Hunting would be to me, if I were to go for Ljolsofar. It's partly why I deliberately didn't suggest Archery - I don't want to tilt things to favour me.

[mackoti]

Oi, where's my lurker posts?

As mentioned in the thread, it's a bit difficult to discuss techs when we've got a good idea what civs we have. I hope I haven't been biased too much by the importance that Hunting would be to me, if I were to go for Ljolsofar. It's partly why I deliberately didn't suggest Archery - I don't want to tilt things to favour me.

Helo here.

I dont knw how but you got the best 3 otions for this game  setup I think. I dont think Arendel will be very slow as the malus for workers is gone and if there are forested hills you get directly bonus production and with way of the forests get super tiles, and i dont think anyone will plan to rush you   .

[Tarkeel]

Oi, where's my lurker posts?

Lurking, but too green in the mod to ask anything resembling an interesting question. Love the speculation on what others will pick though.

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Oi, where's my lurker posts?

As mentioned in the thread, it's a bit difficult to discuss techs when we've got a good idea what civs we have. I hope I haven't been biased too much by the importance that Hunting would be to me, if I were to go for Ljolsofar. It's partly why I deliberately didn't suggest Archery - I don't want to tilt things to favour me.

Helo here.

I dont knw how but you got the best 3 otions for this game  setup I think. I dont think Arendel will be very slow as the malus for workers is gone and if there are forested hills you get directly bonus production and with way of the forests get super tiles, and i dont think anyone will plan to rush you   .

Huh, maybe. Good to hear your insight. Isn't Averax still EXP/AGG? I think that's fearsome and I would rate it and Falamar ahead of Arendal and probably Rhoanna. But I might be wrong - I haven't played MP in yonks. 

I hope no one rushes me! I do think Auric could be quite scary with one tech till PoWs, and it's easy to underestimate Sinister Hunters - I think I'd be most scared of an Elf rival match.

And thanks for indulging me lurkers Tarkeel, there's no such thing as an uninteresting question! Happy to talk about anything.

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Also, as we wait for starts, some notes on T1:

Everyone will be revolting to GK, Arist, and Apprenticeship t1 (for a net +2xp, +50% h/gpt in the capital). That means they get a 'free' turn to look around before needing to settle. As SPI, we'll want to settle immediately, so hopefully we can find a good spot within 3 moves.

Then there's the question of the start. Researching Leaves is easy IMO - whilst you don't get a huge amount from founding it (the shrine is nice but not crazy like Noctis and Nature is the most useless of mana), switching in lets us start work on the passive terraforming of our forests. But for production, there are three (four?) choices imo:
* Market - making good on the +50% got, a market helps power us towards a event fund and later supports our expansion
* Worker - I think I'd rather just grow, but a second worker can help power our start. Before the workrate malus this would be a stronger consideration
* Hunting Lodge - this is the military option. Early hunters are strong, with 4str and two moves, and are 3xp away from making animals for us, as military, scouting or happiness (Arendal doesn't need culture)
* Elder Council - I only just thought of this, but this is an option to go for an early Academy in the capital. I don't think I'd go for it as I'd rather work tiles than specialists, but maybe for city 2.
* Pagan temple - I believe I fitted this in in my last game, though probably not as my first build. This is to work towards a great prophet, who I think would bulb RoK (so not a priority for me) or else settle a shrine.

In normal discovery I think Gilden would be a good pick, but without archery I think we'll assess based on the civs others choose if we want to start with a Lodge, or squeeze in a market for bank.

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Also, as we wait for starts, some notes on T1:

Everyone will be revolting to GK, Arist, and Apprenticeship t1 (for a net +2xp, +50% h/gpt in the capital). That means they get a 'free' turn to look around before needing to settle. As SPI, we'll want to settle immediately, so hopefully we can find a good spot within 3 moves.

Then there's the question of the start. Researching Leaves is easy IMO - whilst you don't get a huge amount from founding it (the shrine is nice but not crazy like Noctis and Nature is the most useless of mana), switching in lets us start work on the passive terraforming of our forests. But for production, there are three (four?) choices imo:
* Market - making good on the +50% got, a market helps power us towards a event fund and later supports our expansion
* Worker - I think I'd rather just grow, but a second worker can help power our start. Before the workrate malus this would be a stronger consideration
* Hunting Lodge - this is the military option. Early hunters are strong, with 4str and two moves, and are 3xp away from making animals for us, as military, scouting or happiness (Arendal doesn't need culture)
* Elder Council - I only just thought of this, but this is an option to go for an early Academy in the capital. I don't think I'd go for it as I'd rather work tiles than specialists, but maybe for city 2.
* Pagan temple - I believe I fitted this in in my last game, though probably not as my first build. This is to work towards a great prophet, who I think would bulb RoK (so not a priority for me) or else settle a shrine.

In normal discovery I think Gilden would be a good pick, but without archery I think we'll assess based on the civs others choose if we want to start with a Lodge, or squeeze in a market for bank.

Belay this, I've been thinking of the 'Classical' starts available on EMM, not EitB. Markets won't be available T1. This also explains some of the confusion as it looks like Discovery doesn't traditionally grant a worker Oh well, it sounds like everyone agrees on starting with one.

As such, I think it's a pretty clear Hunting Lodge start. Elder council is an option, but...

I'm starting to get a little nervous at how close we all might be. Generating some maps is showing a decent amount of land, lots of juicy forest, but also distances of 7-10 tiles. That's pretty scary in fast-moving FFH2, as one city in we might end up neighbours to the Svartalfar or Sheaim. Oh well. Strengthens the argument for Archery second, to get Gilden online.

The alternative is probably to work towards either Priesthood (probably not, too early, but does get our major T3 military online as well as a significant economic boost) or Drama.

Drama is the outsized option of any FFH2 mid-game, as the free Great Bard can be parlayed into a Sanitation bulb (great for Aristograrianism and a solid boost for anyone else), a golden age or, as we're most interested in, a Leaves shrine. Festivals->Drama also allows one to build culture and grants markets which are great as discussed.

I think we're going to give it a miss this game, though. As nice as a bard would be, we don't need Drama to build culture so we'd be taking an expensive diversion, especially if we lose it. Even with advanced tech, the vertical nature of the FFH2 tech tree rewards prioritisation, and getting to our medium-term goodies (PoL, Foreign Trade, Gilden, etc.) is far more important. Besides, we're already chasing one first-to (albeit one that hopefully no-one but us and the Svartalfar will go for), so we'd be far behind anyone that beelines it. I am hoping that missing Archery will nudge people away from wanting FotL.

Another alternative, start dependent, would be sailing. I'm quite worried that the amount of water might mean that cultists are able to dominate this map, and sailing is also a solid economic tech with Pearls and Lighthouses.