PB68 - Lurking the tides of war

[Ginger*]

Map, and player count, attacking is expensive, and the profits will alarm the others
It's a race to tech domination now, anything else is just zero-sum
Amica was complaining about Commodore's attacks, which is really funny, given the AW settings, but it also I tend to agree that Comm's attacks didn't help him

[Mjmd]

Ya it seems like these tiny war games are early jockeying followed by long periods of starring at each other.

[RefSteel]

How is this game so peaceful? Does the Always War setting itself cause peace?

Basically, yes. I think Krill was the first to describe this effect, saying AW games are always the most peaceful and Always Peace games always the most aggressive. I think the way it works is that almost no matter what the map looks like, the lack of incentive to maintain peace with a violent neighbor means that would-be attackers have to constantly protect their flanks against opportunistic strikes and even full invasions while their own army is stuck in enemy territory, which means you need a much bigger advantage before you can attack effectively. (In Always Peace, which is rarely played, there are basically no negative repurcussions to planting aggressively. The only reprisal you can make against a forward high-culture plant is to make your own forward high-culture plant, either against the offending city or elsewhere against the offending civ, and since defense and offense are the same, the instant you cease losing ground to a cultural attack, you're basically making a cultural attack yourself. Or something.)

[Magic Science]

How is this game so peaceful? Does the Always War setting itself cause peace?

Basically, yes.  I think Krill was the first to describe this effect, saying AW games are always the most peaceful and Always Peace games always the most aggressive.  I think the way it works is that almost no matter what the map looks like, the lack of incentive to maintain peace with a violent neighbor means that would-be attackers have to constantly protect their flanks against opportunistic strikes and even full invasions while their own army is stuck in enemy territory, which means you need a much bigger advantage before you can attack effectively.  (In Always Peace, which is rarely played, there are basically no negative repurcussions to planting aggressively.  The only reprisal you can make against a forward high-culture plant is to make your own forward high-culture plant, either against the offending city or elsewhere against the offending civ, and since defense and offense are the same, the instant you cease losing ground to a cultural attack, you're basically making a cultural attack yourself.  Or something.

The only peace-incentives removed by Always War are foreign trade routes and resource deals. The other peace-incentive of being able to demilitarize the border so you get to train fewer units overall and focus those units on another neighbor remain, and that peace-incentive seems a lot more important to me. If we played a game where foreign trade routes and resource deals were banned, but you were still free to choose war and peace like normal, would that game be as viciously peaceful as this one? Are foreign trade routes and resource deals really the things that make all the difference?

Personally, I think the main thing is that in Always War you cannot use war and peace as a signal of your intentions, because you are always at war with everyone, and you cannot ever defuse a situation with a binding Peace Treaty either.

...

Anyway, about this game, it is interesting how Miguelito + Amicalola now seem to be in the lead. I guess IND was stronger under these conditions than I thought, and maybe Yuri + Naufragar missed an opportunity somewhere.

[Qgqqqqq]

Interesting to see this heating up all of a sudden. I don't think Commodore can take a city, but I didn't look closely at his stack.

[El Grillo]

I'm glad that Commodore and yuri seem to have mutually decided to focus on their other neighbor, if Commodore had moved that stack west then yuri would pull back and then we'd be stuck again.

[Qgqqqqq]

Well I guess we will see. Now that hes out of Migs territory he might decide to swing in a couple of turns when Yuris most exposed.

[RefSteel]

The only peace-incentives removed by Always War are foreign trade routes and resource deals. The other peace-incentive of being able to demilitarize the border so you get to train fewer units overall and focus those units on another neighbor remain, and that peace-incentive seems a lot more important to me. If we played a game where foreign trade routes and resource deals were banned, but you were still free to choose war and peace like normal, would that game be as viciously peaceful as this one? Are foreign trade routes and resource deals really the things that make all the difference?

I think you're right; you can demilitarize a border more thoroughly and deeply with Open Borders and (one or more) scouting unit(s) for "trust but verify" but that isn't really relevant on a map this size anyway.  Also, of course, the game has stopped being viciously peaceful, though arguably that's just demonstrating the point:  Actually warring was arguably a mistake.  That, and:

Personally, I think the main thing is that in Always War you cannot use war and peace as a signal of your intentions, because you are always at war with everyone, and you cannot ever defuse a situation with a binding Peace Treaty either.

Yup, you're probably right on all counts.  And then...

Well I guess we will see. Now that hes out of Migs territory he might decide to swing in a couple of turns when Yuris most exposed.

Looks like he absolutely did!  And ... looking at Yuri's thread, I'm curious about his unit placement.  I think it's possible that if the stack 2SW of Boros Burn was on the hill 1SW of it instead, Commodore would have to think twice about razing the city.  Considering he also thinks Commodore is going to keep the city, he must not realize how wide his capital culture extends!  When it falls, that city will still be completely surrounded in Babylonian culture, meaning only the HAs in Commodore's stack will be able to reach that hill - and also meaning keeping it would be a terrible move for Commodore unless he somehow thinks he can press forward and take or raze the capital too.  Leaving a neighbor one less build queue (Settler + Growth + Infrastructure would take a long time to pay for itself there) and taking pressure off of Thoth are both good outcomes for Commodore since he can accomplish them with most of his army intact.  Were Yuris positioned to hit him hard in reply, it would at least make the decision of whether to attack and raze more difficult. [EDIT: Also, burning Boros means less cultural pressure on two of Commodore's cities that are missing tiles in their second rings....]

[Tarkeel]

It sounded like Comm did want to capture the city though, to get a missionary out of it.

[Mjmd]

I forgot to mention how funny it is to see someone stay in caste after a GA just for workshop bonus. Love it.

Poor Yuris. Tried to do something maybe too soon and got knocked down.