RBP3 [SPOILERS] - Friendly Kittens (Ragnar of Maya)

[Maniac Marshall]

Another question: Will your current plans generate a missionary for Garden Marble Zone anywhere? I'm actually hoping the answer is no, because it will make it easier to build a pair of one-turn workers in Fierias if we need a missionary out of there.

Yes. the one next turn heads to Savannah, the one the turn after heads to Thundara. The one that is planned for the capital on your sheet as of now would be for there. However, we have at least 3 more city sites, so having one pre built would not be a bad thing if it enables workers.

[Maniac Marshall]

It shouldn't.

I don't think it's worth working forests unless it will make an immediate and enormous difference in growth. In other words: If we're making 1fpt working plains hills, and have 3 turns to grow, I would switch from a plains hill to a grass forest to cut that to 1 turn to growth. Other than that, I'd stick to the hills until we get lumbermills going.

Lumber mills start going up shortly, like, right after we finish that plains hill mine we're loaning to Savannah.

Savannah will have 2 workers assigned to it when it's planted. It will get a 3rd like a turn or two after it's planted.

My goal there was to chop grainery, then theatre. I really wish in retrospect we'd held off settling Red Dwarf, and had settled either MGZ or Savannah first instead, but at the time, it seemed like the right move =/.

As far as the forest, I think it depends. I'll look at it. We do want to grow, so after those forests are lumbermilled, they are going to be worked for sure.

[Maniac Marshall]

So, I take it you're against whipping the worker at temminck then? OK, here's a question for you then. Given the choice of whipping one at Temminck or at PR, which do you prefer. Temminck generates more food and thus recovers quicker, but, I think I've just about decided PR is going to be no more than a half city if we give the Cows to MGZ and leave the hill with Fierias as an IW city, and maximize Temminck, so I guess I no longer really care much about it honestly.

EDIT: Doesn't deserve another spam post. Not sure if you're keeping up with the email, but here's the latest suggestion for alliance tech strat that I sent in. Mali's had a few issues, so I suggested this and it seems to have been accepted.

Maya: Rifling(4320) -> Constitution (3600) -> Steam Power (5760) -> Assembly Line (9000) | 22,680

Techer 2: Scientific Method (4320) -> Biology (6480) -> Railroad (8100) | 18,900

Techer 3: Steel (5040) -> Communism (5040) -> Corporation (2880) -> Astronomy (3600) | 16,560 or 17, 540 if they have to do Optics.

Someone else picks up Optics (1080) if possible, if not, then Techer 3 needs to do that before Astronomy

[RefSteel]

I can't sleep tonight, so took a quick look at CvCity.cpp. Here is a suspicious bit of hacky rounding. I am not sure what it means but I'll think more about it tomorrow.

Hmmm. That code does look a bit suspicious, even to my untrained eye. I didn't think simple rounding issues could cause the whip cost bug, but maybe this one isn't so simple....

Maniac: Okay, I changed nothing in-game (not even per my suggestion at Kilrah). But there is one thing: Please don't whip the theater in Ornata next turn! Put the overflow into a temple or something. Why?

The forge we just whipped this turn has 144/120 hammers in it, plus we're producing 1 hammer this turn. That means 25 hammers of overflow, which gets "unmultiplied" back to 20 base for next turn. Added to our 1 city-center production, we'll have 21 base hammers, muliplied by 1.5 for OR and the new forge, yielding 31. The theater already has 3 hammers invested, meaning it would be double-whipped for 60 X 1.5 = 90 hammers, and the total hammers we'd be putting into the theater would therefore be 121. Since the cost of the theater is 50, that means 21 hammers converted to cash!

If you were thinking of a whip cascade, it is critical that you cascade *upward* from lower (base) hammer costs to higher ones; otherwise you run into exactly this problem. It's not a big deal - you can just whip the theater one turn later and have nearly the same net effect - but it's a good thing to keep in mind.

[Maniac Marshall]

Hmmm. That code does look a bit suspicious, even to my untrained eye. I didn't think simple rounding issues could cause the whip cost bug, but maybe this one isn't so simple....

Maniac: Okay, I changed nothing in-game (not even per my suggestion at Kilrah). But there is one thing: Please don't whip the theater in Ornata next turn! Put the overflow into a temple or something. Why?

The forge we just whipped this turn has 144/120 hammers in it, plus we're producing 1 hammer this turn. That means 25 hammers of overflow, which gets "unmultiplied" back to 20 base for next turn. Added to our 1 city-center production, we'll have 21 base hammers, muliplied by 1.5 for OR and the new forge, yielding 31. The theater already has 3 hammers invested, meaning it would be double-whipped for 60 X 1.5 = 90 hammers, and the total hammers we'd be putting into the theater would therefore be 121. Since the cost of the theater is 50, that means 21 hammers converted to cash!

If you were thinking of a whip cascade, it is critical that you cascade *upward* from lower (base) hammer costs to higher ones; otherwise you run into exactly this problem. It's not a big deal - you can just whip the theater one turn later and have nearly the same net effect - but it's a good thing to keep in mind.

I wasn't thinking of a cascade, I was thinking we needed the theater done and didn't wan't to double whip it, but didn't realize we were going to lose hammers over it. I'm still confused by the whole overflow thing, and really don't get it even after you explain it to me.

The theater forge is 24 hammers over... why don't those hammers just go into a theater, which can then be whipped? I thought the only problem was cause when you tried to roll more hammers into something than it was capable of holding, like, if we whipped the theater next turn, then tried to roll 50 hammers into a warrior or something that couldn't hold that many. I'm confused.

EDIT: Never mind, I see the confusion. I intended the theater to have 6 hammers, but I botched that. I wouldn't have whiped the theater next turn. I didn't want to double whip it. I would have waited for it to be a single whip given the situation.

[RefSteel]

Yes. the one next turn heads to Savannah, the one the turn after heads to Thundara. The one that is planned for the capital on your sheet as of now would be for there.

Aha. Perfect! We only need the one. So we'll have two workers out of the cap [EDIT: on turns 149 and 150, respectively].

Lumber mills start going up shortly, like, right after we finish that plains hill mine we're loaning to Savannah.

If you're sure that's the best use of our workers. I agree that we start working lumber mills once they're assembled, but not before. For what it's worth, I would build two Lmills simultaneously rather than putting two workers on the same forest to speed up the first.

Savannah will have 2 workers assigned to it when it's planted. It will get a 3rd like a turn or two after it's planted.

If they can chop out a granary and Theater by T149, that's terrific!

So, I take it you're against whipping the worker at temminck then? OK, here's a question for you then. Given the choice of whipping one at Temminck or at PR, which do you prefer.

Depends on when. If you mean this turn, I'd have to look at the game again. That's assuming you have a specific task for the worker; otherwise, I might say neither or both - just to be contrary.

I do see e-mails sent to F/K (thanks to forwarding) and I think your tech plan is great.

The theater forge is 24 hammers over... why don't those hammers just go into a theater, which can then be whipped?

They do, but you have to spend a turn pouring them in before they're there.

I thought the only problem was cause when you tried to roll more hammers into something than it was capable of holding, like, if we whipped the theater next turn, then tried to roll 50 hammers into a warrior or something that couldn't hold that many. I'm confused.

Actually, this is NOT a problem. It's safe to roll as many hammers as you want INTO something. Although in your example, you'd still have trouble because 50 hammers is more than TWICE the warrior's value. You'd have 50 hammers going into the warrior just fine, but it would result in 35 hammers of overflow FROM the warrior, which is more than the warrior's value. That's where the problem arises. If you only had 20 hammers of overflow going into the warrior (and say 1 hammer of normal production) you'd get a one-turn warrior with 6 hammers of overflow. (Ignoring multipliers for the moment, of course.)

I would have waited for it to be a single whip given the situation.

Aha. That's easy then. Just wait one more turn, and it'll be a single whip with lots of overflow.

[Maniac Marshall]

The specific plan for that worker is to give it to Byz... which can wait a turn or two. how bout I let you look at the game and you tell me. I'm done with the turn except for Kilrah, gifting the Knight, deciding what to do with our chariot in Ruff's lands, and 3 workers down by Ornata, which I'm open to suggestions for what to do with.

BTW: My plan for the 2 workers at Kilrah was: Mine hill (for Savannah), Mine hill, Road, Move to preroaded forest and lumbermill. After that, I was going to reassign one of the workers to either Red Dwarf, or Fierias, whichever seemed to need it the most, (probably RD) and have the other one "finish" Kilrah. If you disagree, tell me what you think I should do with them.

I'd say, with the 3 workers coming out of FS, the 2 from the cap, that gives us 5. If we make one out of PR or Temminck to give to Byz, then we're looking at having 23 workers for 12 cities, with 3-5 more cities on the adgenda... I think we're set for workers at that point. Our core cities are nearing finished, and steam will speed things up. We could potentially make another here or there, but I think 23-25 for 15 cities with steam is enough or nearly so.

EDIT: Looks like you're gone for the evening. I'll log in and finish up.

[RefSteel]

The specific plan for that worker is to give it to Byz... which can wait a turn or two. how bout I let you look at the game and you tell me.

I'll have a look when you're ready. I do have some suggestions on the questions you had. Hang on.

[RefSteel]

3 workers down by Ornata, which I'm open to suggestions for what to do with.

I'd send at least two of them to cottage at Temminck. I'd probably have the third move to one of the hill tiles the roading of which would shave off a tile of movement between Ornata and the rest of the empire.

BTW: My plan for the 2 workers at Kilrah was: Mine hill (for Savannah), Mine hill, Road, Move to preroaded forest and lumbermill. After that, I was going to reassign one of the workers to either Red Dwarf, or Fierias, whichever seemed to need it the most, (probably RD) and have the other one "finish" Kilrah. If you disagree, tell me what you think I should do with them.

I agree with this completely. Great plan. And yeah, Fierias won't need worker attention for a while to come.

I'd say, with the 3 workers coming out of FS, the 2 from the cap, that gives us 5. If we make one out of PR or Temminck to give to Byz, then we're looking at having 23 workers for 12 cities, with 3-5 more cities on the adgenda... I think we're set for workers at that point. Our core cities are nearing finished, and steam will speed things up. We could potentially make another here or there, but I think 23-25 for 15 cities with steam is enough or nearly so.

The thing about Steam is ... it means railroads are coming.

[Maniac Marshall]

RE: Kilrah. Eh, ok. It does appear to save 2 hammers in the long run. We might as well finish the grocer, however, as having a unit a couple turns earlier does nothing when we then have to go back to the grocer in 2 turns anyway.

Oh shit, I thought you'd gone. I can log out if you want.