[PB70] The Cartographic Correction Committee convenes

[scooter]

I sort of suspect that Charriu city is just dead if Bing cares to try. And yet, from the tech thread discord.

BING_XI_LAO:
@Superdeath I forgot to declare war, could you reload it again? skirm got pushed backward by borders
Actually @Superdeath don't reload
Without the worker there I wouldn't have declared war and wouldn't have pre-emptively decced to prevent culture teleport
peace reigns

He just went "nah I'm good."

We just went through this full reload and 3 days of drama/stasis for his benefit and he ended up even worse off than before and shrugged it off like he moved a scout the wrong way.


Troll king. I'm in awe.

[scooter]

Look, if/when I do something dastardly later to somebody, I just want it on the record that I did pass up a NAP-stab and calmly walked away from this city.

[scooter]

Ok, we're moving again, time for a proper update. First in Bing Corner.





Bing, my man. You have 3 Skirmishers here. Charriu has, like, a couple warriors and a bunch of easily accessible defensive terrain. You've settled in his face so wildly that you're already committed to conflict with him. Just go choke him to death and lock up all this land right? To be fair, it sort of looks like he's already pretty squeezed. Bing planted a 6th city, and those neutral territory roads look suspiciously like they're headed to another city. Will check it out next assuming Bing's RNG doesn't come up "kill the scout" or something. Maybe I'll prod him to start something.





On the home front - settled Pink Chengdu (which admittedly feels quaint after watching Bing do all this to Charriu) and got an absolutely clutch religion spread in Xian which means we can pull in the Deer and delay that filler city up there in favor of other priorities.





The home front. Beijing is doing a quick growth cycle before getting out the next settler for location TBD. I'm torn right now between pushing even harder south and crushing our tech pace (30% breakeven right now) versus squeezing a Galley out and settling Stone Island to get IC routes to inject us with some cash. Sure we have Pyramids coming in less than 10T, but we're going to be, uh, limping to Writing just to unlock Libraries and Scientists. Guangzhou got its Forge. This is relevant because it allows us to begin another Engineer pool now. Pop Pyramids in there along with our first Engineer and 150% GPP bonus, and the second Engineer will then beat out the Prophet and score us Machinery in around 20T. Sounds fun!





The south. White is sort of the default here, and it becomes even better with Xian getting a free border pop in 10T. The only problem is it makes a west coast Wheat city sort of awkward, but I generally think it's worth it. So my inclination is to settle here next and prioritize growth curve over tech when we have other avenues to tech via Bulbs and Representation. Speaking of.





Still a little rough, but slowly recovering. We were dead last in both food/mfg a handful of turns ago. Given that the wonder/specialist plays are holding this down, I'm still optimistic. My main concern is just Mjmd getting too far out of hand.









I'm reasonably confident in our future-looking position being fine against everyone else, but he's pushed quite far ahead, and his northern neighbor Charriu looks to be extremely stunted. It's not insane to consider sending CKNs west across the pond at him when the time comes. Superdeath could be interested in pulling him back to the pack too. That's where the diplo comes in. Not as a pure total invasion of course, but you get the point. Something to think about.

[scooter]

Bing is floating around our south with a Skirmisher now, so slight tweak to the plans. He's now aware of our aggressive plant and made a Bing-like remark about it to me that seemed neither happy nor mad. So, let's look at the situation.





Bing had a warrior just fortified outside Shanghai. I asked him to move it, and he moved it to the tile indicated via sign. His power has spiked as he's built a shocking number of Skirms so far. I know most of them are down by Charriu, but I have to be prepared for him to add more just like he did with Charriu. So we have the one axe/warrior in the area, but I've queued up another pair of axes (plus the Beijing Spear that upgraded from Warrior in the queue) plus a settler all incoming in the next half dozen turns. That will ensure we can safely hold this area. Chengdu does not necessarily need to whip that Axe immediately. It started the Granary already and I'd like to get back to that, but it seems vitally important to get the Axe to 5/35 whip range ASAP, so that's what we're going to do here. All in all that makes a settler, pair of workers, spear, and pair of axes all completing in the next 3-5 turns, and the vast majority of it is earmarked for this area. I suspect Bing's units are less aggressive and more his way of trying to stake out a Fish/Cow city west of his Skirmisher before us. I don't think we can reasonably race for that one, so that's fine with me.


The early emphasis on Granaries has been massively helpful the last few turns as Beijing went from size 2 to size 6 end of this turn lightning fast, and the additional happiness we have allows me to be pretty free with whipping. As it is we can whip a settler at size 6 and regrow all of that pop in just a few turns - pretty much 1 pop per turn or close to it. Representation will increase our happy cap even further, so I can sustain whip cycles like this for awhile.

[scooter]

I tried some diplo again recently. Not much is super interesting. I confess I tried to do some mild goading between Bing and Charriu, but I kept it super tame. That said, I thought this recent excerpt with Charriu was worth noting as it's a conscious choice I made that will either seem like an obviously correct choice or a deeply weird one, depending on your context for diplo games.

Charriu
By the way since you and me are both PHI and you IND too I just wanted to let you know that I won't compete with you for the Pyramids should you go in that direction.

scooter
Thanks for the heads up. I do intend to complete it, and I don't think my ETA is beatable by a race from anyone anyway, so I wasn't really too worried about it. I guess there's not much point in being secretive about those intentions since anyone paying attention will know that's in the cards.

Charriu
Yeah I actually try to profit from that by investing some stone boosted hammers for fail gold.

scooter
well, I'll do you a favor then. It should be complete EoT 76, so that should give you the time needed to know whether or not you can get some gold out of it. I'd prefer you not repeat the date to anyone even though I think it's pretty easy to guess that's the rough date

Charriu
No word will go out

<snip unrelated chat>

Charriu
Thanks for the ETA. That's 20 extra gold for me.

scooter
nice!

Why help him like this? There's a few really obvious reasons.

1) I want him as a friend! We share a seemingly hostile or at least unpredictable neighbor, so it's good to do him a favor.

2) He's a bit behind and squabbling with my neighbor, so propping him up is good.

3) I didn't do him that big of a favor. He could have easily calculated my Pyramids ETA to within 1-2 turns, so all I did was provide him some certainty.


I think there's a more philosophical reason though when it comes to diplo games.


Talking to people is good


I've seen an idea pop up in a few threads here about how seemingly minor grievances between players in-game can slowly stack up and create a certain casus belli that may seem sort of irrational to someone watching the game omnisciently. I really believe the inverse is true too. Super minor positive interactions can snowball into a more favorable view of someone than the objective game state says you ought to have. This is especially true in a diplo game where you're able to humanize your choices much more.


And this gets into the main drawback of the diplo format. If the late game is close between 2+ players, quite often the winner is pushed over the line either directly or indirectly by non-contending players who make a choice on who they like better. This has been known to make lurkers very angry, depending on which outcome they were rooting for, and usually it starts up huge arguments over "kingmaking." The problem is this the risk of kingmaking is inherently higher in this game format, so you must accept the risk and plan around it. So, if there might be some kingmaking in the future, it's really important that the potential kingmakers like you - as a person, player, and civ. Talking to people a lot, even if it means being a little looser with your words than comfortable, helps that a lot.


This definitely isn't a purely manipulative thing either - talking about the game casually with other players can be really, genuinely fun. The recent Bing/Charriu saga was much more fun to me given that I could just talk about it with the other players rather than try to blindly guess at what's happening. It's a really nice way to stay engaged in the game.

[DaveV]

I remember very well from the diplo games that people who talked to each other a lot, whether about in-game stuff or just random real-life stuff, tended to have better relationships. On the other hand, someone who was unresponsive or unavailable tended to perceived as standoffish or secretly hostile. This adds a big burden of not only being available to play the turn daily (for potentially several hours), but to be available 24/7 for chat. I think this is one of the big reasons a lot of people soured on diplo games.

[scooter]

I remember very well from the diplo games that people who talked to each other a lot, whether about in-game stuff or just random real-life stuff, tended to have better relationships. On the other hand, someone who was unresponsive or unavailable tended to perceived as standoffish or secretly hostile. This adds a big burden of not only being available to play the turn daily (for potentially several hours), but to be available 24/7 for chat. I think this is one of the big reasons a lot of people soured on diplo games.

Yeah absolutely. It's one of the downsides of the format. It's a bit more doable in a small game like this though.



Speaking of diplo, a quick plug for the Discord: https://discord.gg/9qQzxQ9hCW


There's been some higher stakes diplo today for the first time, and if you want to watch it unedited, it's there. I'll try to summarize later.

[scooter]

Well, up until the last 24-48 hours the diplo in this game has been pretty chill. As in, there's been very little of it. Very few NAPs, no real settling deals, etc. That's starting to change as borders are starting to narrow. But also, Bing is forcing the issue.





That's 2 Skirmishers and a Warrior just floating around near my lands, threatening to make my planned city plants very uncomfortable. He seemed quite unhappy about me planting Chengdu. On one hand, I get it. It's a very aggressive plant in a lush spot that really takes a lot of control over the area. On the other hand, he did the exact same thing to Charriu.





Notice the borders to the east right where the equivalent to Chengdu exists. Anyway, I want to continue settling in this area, but I'm uncomfortable with how free he's been with these Skirmishers. I can match them with axes, but if they get onto defensive terrain, there's only so much I can do. So let's try to lean on him diplomatically and see if I can diffuse this.

scooter — Today at 8:49 AM
So are you looking to cause trouble with those skirms or what

It seems sort of silly for us to keep building axes and skirms while Mjmd and Superdeath keep building workers and settlers and pulling away

Bing — Today at 9:24 AM
True, my jimmies got rustled by your forward and I want to make sure I can settle some in your direction )

scooter — Today at 9:25 AM
I get it, but all those hammers could have been a settler . I assume you’re planning to settle that cow/fish area soon? If you back off your units I won’t contest that

Bing — Today at 9:26 AM
I don't remember what the region looks like exactly

scooter — Today at 9:26 AM
I’m claiming more than my “fair share” yes, but I’m claiming less of yours than you are of Charriu, so you should come out ahead still overall

Bing — Today at 9:26 AM
can I log in now?

scooter — Today at 9:26 AM
Sure

Bing — Today at 9:32 AM
So I'm guessing I don't get that wheat that your culture popped onto recently
Was considering a town 2s 1 E of it
but it would take ages to get culture there
But if I take the fish then where you you fit a town to work that wheat

scooter — Today at 9:35 AM
well, that Wheat is literally closer to my capital than yours before accounting for you settling in the opposite direction
I sort of guessed you'd settle on the grassland next to the cow with Fish second ring and I'd probably settle 1S of the wheat

Bing — Today at 9:37 AM
I founded my own equivalent of this, same spot
So the pigs north west of it can only be worked by a town that's within 2 tiles of that location next to cattle you mentioned




scooter — Today at 9:40 AM
I guess my stance is you should be building settlers if you want to build cities there. You've already settled that Fish spot on Charriu's side, I don't quite understand why I should just be expected to give it to you on the other side too

Bing — Today at 9:41 AM
Probably one of us should found a city that covers wheat+fish, and if it's not me, then I would like to be compensated elsewhere

scooter — Today at 9:41 AM
I'm ok with you having it if it keeps the peace of course

Bing — Today at 9:41 AM
(ie to the immediate East)

scooter — Today at 9:41 AM
Yeah I get what you mean

Bing — Today at 9:52 AM
I think agreeing for me to have a city site here somewhere would resolve it.

I would also like to have the "rights" to this island. I do have some settlers underway, btw



scooter — Today at 10:39 AM
yeah I definitely won't contest that island
Would something like this work?



this backs up the wheat/fish spot to be less close to you, and this spot means my eastern city and your spot here would not culturally clash

if we agree to this, it also leave you free to backfill it and make sure you actually get all of Charriu's land
which would result in you getting greater than normal amount
rather than settler racing me
we could pair it with a NAP to make sure. that way we could also bring down the military commitment in the area and both use it elsewhere

Bing — Today at 11:13 AM
Yes, that's quite acceptable.

scooter — Today at 11:15 AM
Ok sounds good, I'll agree to that then. I'll make sure my military are only defensive then if you'll do the same

I don't really want to give up that central spot, but even more than that I don't want to get my settlers/workers harassed by Protective Skirmisher spam, so this deal is fine. I definitely do find it extremely funny that he devotes enormous resources to settling south without making a deal with me first and then is surprise-pikachu.jpg when I do the same thing in return.


I also chatted with Charriu about the situation. This was less formal so I won't include it all, but we did slip this informal agreement into the conversation

scooter — Today at 11:08 AM
I think in the long run we should eventually consider dividing up Bing ... maybe once his skirmishers are less of an issue
he's going to fall far behind in tech

Charriu — Today at 11:10 AM
Exactly my thinking. Let him build this territory up with workers and then we take it

scooter — Today at 11:10 AM
Yep
I don't know exactly when yet, but let's keep that plan in mind. I'm just going to try to do the minimum to prevent a skirmisher choke, but I'm not planning on being helpful to him beyond that

Charriu — Today at 11:14 AM
Me too. Let maintenance do it's work against him. My culture against his border will hurt him too

Very nice. It's not exactly binding so we both have outs, but I don't think I have to persuade super hard because we both feel annoyed that we're having to build axes while Mjmd/Superdeath don't need to because Bing is just flinging Skirmishers at both neighbors.


So, I think the situation is in control on the Bing front. I've come to an agreement to get him to back off without having to commit to too much, and it'll result in us getting some really strong cities. If I want those city locations later, there are... ways to acquire them.

[Ginger*]

Yeah I should make a more detailed post about how I feel about this game and my irl time constraints starting a spring term and a new job. But I do want to point out what an energeticand interesting effort Scooter has put into the diplo channels. Constant small talk about various in game minutiae to prevent a spell of silence and keep us informed, and great defusion of tension without being too on the nose.

[scooter]

Next in the diplo world, there’s Superdeath. He originally broached the subject of an agreement on land split. Originally I wasn’t wild on the idea as I prefer to allow borders to unfold naturally, but as things changed turn-by-turn with Bing, I’ve grown more interested. I’ve also seen there’s some wisdom in locking the IMP player into “fair” borders, but also I’ve become convinced that this map setup (with 1 neighbor in each opposite direction) it’s optimal to agree to a backlines with one neighbor while aggressively settling the other way. Bing has made this all come together, so it seemed like a good time to agree to a deal. Superdeath had asked again about a week ago, but I needed to defog a few more tiles. So we circled back yesterday/today.

scooter— Yesterday at 11:22 AM
So, I've defogged all the land between us, and I've started thinking about the border question you had again. Curious to get your thoughts
Here's a screenshot of the land. I marked two things. 1) a planned city of ours (that I don't think is under any dispute), and 2) a line marking the latitude midpoint.

I definitely am not putting that as what the line should be, but rather just as a frame of reference for decision making. I'm hoping we can land on something we're happy with so that we can both push settlers in different directions and backfill these spots and both claim more than our fair share




I think more practically we probably want to split more like east/west or something. Like, I imagine one of us settling the west coast 1NE of the Fish on the plains, and the other settling on the east side for rice/sugar, and that should also leave both of us with room for a central city
Do you have any strong feelings? I don't have any wild demands or anything, don't worry. Just know you asked about this a week or so ago, and now that I've defogged more and you're back home, it seemed like a good time to respond

Superdeath— Today at 12:45 AM
This work for you?




scooter— Today at 10:52 AM
I think that looks pretty good. The cultural border will be a little tricky
but I think that's a good way to split it for sure
I think as long as we don't intentionally pile culture in it should be good as we'll both get our first ring tiles with no problem

Superdeath— Today at 10:55 AM
Sounds good

scooter— Today at 10:55 AM
would you like to extend our NAP a bit further?
I think we're at T80 right now, maybe T100?

Superdeath— Today at 11:01 AM
T110?

scooter— Today at 11:01 AM
Sure, let's do it
T110 with two provisions:

1) We follow the above dotmap
2) We make best efforts to only pop borders in these front cities, not pile in extra culture in an attempt to choke

Superdeath— Today at 11:03 AM
Also, as a sign of friendly relations, figured I'd let you know my scout has spotted almost a steady stream of skirms
That works for me

Perfect. This allows time/space to settle south as well as get an island or two while still having these cities as safe backlines. A few thoughts on how it shook out.

1. I don’t especially love how close these cities are together, but I don’t think it’s totally avoidable. Fish city is fine, but it has to be there. The central city is the hard one as it’s uncomfortably close, but I don’t see a great alternative. I could move it back, but then I lose the hill defense, which I think is vitally important. The eastern city is a bit underwhelming compared to the rest of the map, but it can work.
2. So why agree to this? Overall, I felt the most important thing was for SD to be happy with the deal. We have a strong interest in grabbing land elsewhere and a moderate interest in maybe eating Bing later, and conflict with SD seems less and less like a good idea to me as the game goes on. So let’s make him happy.
3. It’s not marked in this picture, but there would also be a city 1W of the Wheat.
4. The central city could maybe go 1W - I have mixed feelings. Would have to run it by SD, but I was mostly concerned with getting it on a hill. (You’ll notice my agreement with Bing earlier had him not settling on the hill - that was definitely intentional.)
5. The NAP extension felt like a no-brainer. Cho-Ku-Nus won't arrive on the scene for another 15-20 turns, and SD is not really a sensible target at the moment.