[pb72 spoilers]: the esteemed gentleman's literature and book club

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civ password is bandraw

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As you may have guessed by the title, the theme of this thread is going to be serious literature for serious people. The naming scheme for my cities and workers will be books and authors that I have read throughout the years. Not all of them will be books that I enjoyed or hold in particularly high regard, but I hope that all of them will be interesting to read and discuss. if I play my cards right, I am hoping said discussion will overtake the civ gameplay, which I cannot promise will be quite as refined.

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On the civ side of things, I will give a bit of a brief self retrospective. I played in three BtS civ 4 games here, turning in one decent result and two poor ones. Going off of those games, my strengths were generally that, given land that is on the higher end of quality, I was able to put in enough focus to have my cities grown on high pop, with key infrastructure whipped in, and a lot of cottages. This carried me to a second place finish in my best played game, despite a severe military misplay that cost me a shot at winning. My other two games featured much worse land, which didn't count as an automatic disqualifier - other players were in a similar boat, and one different game used the same map where another player did a much better job with my start. What did happen is that I felt much less enthusiasm in focusing and playing the turns well when I was stuck with mediocre, food poor cities, which means that slaving and doing anything productive is just slower.

One thing I had in all three games is that I was stuck playing in a reactive position. This is because I was always short on land. I am not sure how much of that can be attributed to either: a poor opening in the first 30 turns, a poor opening when entering the classical several cities phase, or just being too timid to push forward right away with settlers. My goal in this game is to try and be in an active position. Ideally, I want to grab one or two expansion traits, and push expansion hard so other players are reacting to me instead of the other way around. I don't expect to win even with this in mind - I have no strong plans to deal with a crashed economy, and I doubt I will be that effective in staving off dogpiles. But I think figuring out the REX part of the game and enticing a dogpile rather than joining one will be a step forward.

So, hoping for a leader like Cathy, Joao, or the burger king to drop. As far as civs go, Inca would be good to pair with a non EXP leader (15h off is half as good as the EXP granary discount, which is the only reason why you'd pick the trait). Greece is also cool, since you can defend with the super spears against knights for a long time, so it would make crashing the economy in the medieval period less scary.

However, I am also way out of practice with Civ 4. I spent the recent years playing either Civ 6 or the RFC: Dawn of Civ mod for Civ 4, both of which are quite far removed from the mechanics of the base game, not to mention this Close to Home mod I have not used. So my senses for what to research past the AH / BW / Pottery triangle and what to build are all out of whack. Here's hoping I can figure that out by the time the first 15 turns are done.

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I approve of your naming scheme, looking forward to which books you have in mind.

As for the game itself, it's up to you how you'd like to take advantage of my ded-lurking. My strengths lie more on the macro-side of things, but I believe I've picked up some micro tricks from civac and Amica.

My evaluation of traits hasn't evolved much since PB62, but EXP has picked up a slight mid-game economic boost with the latest circumnavigation change. That game also gave me an appreciation of what IMP can do, which is worth restating: You pretty much don't need to plan where your next settler is coming from, as any (size 4+) city can 2-whip one as needed. ORG has been my preferred trait, but those games have been played on EMP. Don't underestimate the economic value of both PRO and AGG though. Interesting to see which leaders and civs we can pick from.

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I'd be fine with ORG or PRO as a support trait - ORG would play well with a unique courthouse if possible, while PRO is just fire and forget (and lets you rely more on archers for garrisons). I don't see that much value to AGG, because it offers you negligible savings until you've actually built the army that would drain your finances, usually much later in the game than you get your FIN cottages or courthouses running.

The main thing I see about IMP vs EXP is that you have to play your civ around them - you need wheel + the food tech or mining + the food tech, because not going for slaving with IMP or early granaries with EXP feels like you are crippling yourself. But I have will admit I have not played the best starts in the world. My micro / simming efforts often ended up with two worker starts and that always seemed to end up with me in a slow position. I am hoping picking expansion traits will help get out of that mindset.

[Tarkeel]

On Monarch, I think we'd want some more value out of ORG than just reduced maintenance: Either an ORG-boosted UB or the map looks very watery. I've been trying to quit my ORG addiction though.

I don't think it's necessary to lean that heavily into either IMP or EXP; you're probably going BronzeWorking first regardless, unless the start requires AnimalHusbandry.

Remember that FIN now requires a lighthouse to give bonus on water, negating any early game benefits. Although you could do what Jowy did in PB60...

For the ones you mentioned earlier:
Inca would be interesting to play, especially if the map looks dry
CRE/IMP Cathy I've always felt is a trap; too much expansion and not enough paying for it
EXP/IMP Joao is in a similar boat; going all in on expansion
IMP/PRO Charlemagne I feel better about, especially on Monarch. For EMP, I think IMP/ORG Julius is on of the best leadersm but PRO might be better here

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Since I haven't played with the mod much, would you rate the lack of instant financial coast as a significant drawback? In the base game, you don't usually find yourself working water tiles without the lighthouse anyway, unless it's a food resource that you hooked early on. The extra coins you get on early game seafood are usually marginal even when considering openings.

Although I would prefer not to play FIN because the last two out of three games I had a FIN leader.

I did have a thought about a 'cute' play: Cathy of Arabia, using the cheap madrassas to get a shrine to pay for the settler spam. Cathy of Sumer is a similar idea with better starting techs (I guess? Don't know how the meta shifted with the changes) if that is available. But both of those have the anti synergy of religious techs + creative.

Charlemange is solid, although he does get played a ton. But I have not used either trait before, so I would not mind.

The secondary Incan benefit of fresh water would be extremely marginal outside of totestra, and I think mmjd said in the setup thread that he wants the greens to be hooked on lush maps. I just think that saving 15 hammers on a granary beats most other unique buildings out there (like that new japanese forge, 2xp on melees and extra prod with coal, whoopee...). The American library is pretty neat but I feel like I would not have the Great Person micro skills to reap the most benefit out of that.

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The main drawback of the FIN coast change is when you have a seafood start: With a FIN leader you could often scrounge up an extra turn or two on critical worker tech, as well as gain a "free" ancient era tech in the first 50 or so turns. It's not much, but it does slow the snowball.

Cathy of Arabia does sound very cute; Cornflakes did some fun stuff with CRE Arabia in PB65. The downside of the cheap Inca Terrace is that you're in effect playing without an UU.

As for other UBs, here are some of the ones I like:
Zulu Ikhanda: mini-courthouse on barracks? What's not to like? Likes AGG though.
Spanish Citadel: Castles are great eco buildings in themselves, and CtH UBs don't obsolete, so you get a lasting +1 trade route (and other stuff), but you want PRO to take most advantage. The XP on boats is the other big bonus, but you want CHA to make the most of it. Played this technically twice lately.
Carthago's Cothon: Expensive harbor with +1 route, but harbors are slightly buffed in the latest CtH iteration. Really wants EXP/PRO to take full advantage.
Viking Trading Post: Real gamechanger in a water oriented map, which you never know if you'll get
Sumerian Ziggurat: Cheap early courthouse, but you need AGG to not cripple your axes. Been played a lot lately.
Ottoman Hamman: The +2 happy can make a big difference on some maps, or be completely useless.
Dutch Dikes: Great on a watery map, not too big if not.
Japanese Tatara: While +2xp doesn't sound like much, with AGG you can build amphibious samurai, which are terrifying attackers.


I've probably forgotten some good ones.

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The ikhanda seemed a lot stronger in RtR when AGG got free city maintenance. But having the potential of a rush is nice.

Spain and carthage seem like solid midgame investments if you have the traits for it. Should be getting the picks in today so then we can take a look.

If the Hammam is worth building for happy with an EXP leader (40h), would the baray be worth it as well? +1 food is killer when you get it for free on later starts, so 40h for +1food on any city seems like a better deal than a 60?h lighthouse for +1 or +2 food on a costal city. Of course, the Jan is a much better UU than a ballistaphant.

Stuff like the Tatara or the totem pole seems like it commits you to using 1 movers, and those only really shine on boats. I'd rather not commit to boat attacks, as those often end up just serving to put another player behind without gaining the attacker much advantage. Although if it is a watery map it might still be worth it

[Tarkeel]

The ikhanda seemed a lot stronger in RtR when AGG got free city maintenance. But having the potential of a rush is nice.

In a no-barb setting people are likely to underbuild units. Having some roaming Impis to keep them honest might be fun.

Spain and carthage seem like solid midgame investments if you have the traits for it. Should be getting the picks in today so then we can take a look.

Carthage is something of a classic, while Spain is much lesser played. I think I'm the only player to voluntarily pick it in CtH so far. The Conquistador can be an awkward unit to get into play at the right time, as it unlocks alongside it's counter at Rifling.

If the Hammam is worth building for happy with an EXP leader (40h), would the baray be worth it as well? +1 food is killer when you get it for free on later starts, so 40h for +1food on any city seems like a better deal than a 60?h lighthouse for +1 or +2 food on a costal city. Of course, the Jan is a much better UU than a ballistaphant.

I played Khmer (with unnerfed ballistaphant) in PB58, and looking back we built quite a few Barays. Opinion is kind of split on it; it's worth more the worse the map is. A lot of this comes down to which starting techs you feel are necessary.

Stuff like the Tatara or the totem pole seems like it commits you to using 1 movers, and those only really shine on boats. I'd rather not commit to boat attacks, as those often end up just serving to put another player behind without gaining the attacker much advantage. Although if it is a watery map it might still be worth it

Yes, the Tatara is very much best when combined with boats, hence the combo with AGG (usually Stalin) for easy amphibious.

I remembered one of the fun combos I'd forgotten: Asoka (SPI/ORG) of Azteca: Dancing in and out of slavery every 5 turns can be powerful on a food-heavy map.