June 1st, 2023, 11:29
(This post was last modified: June 1st, 2023, 11:32 by aetryn.)
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Here we go, my first reporting thread. I am excited but very, very nervous. For the benefit of my dedlurker and anyone trying to understand why I might do silly things, here's my background.
- This is my very first multiplayer experience in Civ4, and really my first competitive multiplayer in any game really.
- Most of my single-player Civ4 experience has been on Epic speed on very large maps (i.e. long, slow games with so much room to expand the early limit is economy, not other players). I expect to be constantly tripped up by the differences.
- I've lurked non-posting around RB sporadically since the very early days. I think PB8 was the first game I followed in detail and boy was that a good game to pick. If I have any idea what I'm doing, it's from following along with much better players than I am.
- I love to tinker and understand things, so I'm happy to sim or plan something if it's important enough
- I also want and need to keep games in their proper place in life, so I don't want to go overboard with elaborate plans for everything, especially when my plans would probably be half-baked to start with due to inexperience.
Given my inexperience and general attitude toward multiplayer, why am I playing in this game at all? I think it ultimately comes down to a desire to push myself out of my comfort zone a bit, and also wanting to contribute to this community in some way. I've really enjoyed reading some of the better reported threads out there over the years, so this is my chance to contribute a little in that same way.
What are my goals for this game (in rough order)?
- Play regularly, fair, and firmly until the end. No throwing the game away, no kingmaking, no cheese. If I get run over by Knights, fight until the end and be gracious about the loss.
- Learn how to be a tough out. I'm naturally inclined to buildery play, so the challenge will be to build enough units not to get run over as the obvious target, and be in position to take advantage of an attack window if I have one. But building too much military commits you to an attack since it ties you down with maintenance, so I will have to find the right balance.
- Learn how to report in a way that's interesting to read and interesting for me to write, so I am comfortable with the pace and time commitment of reporting but hopefully the readers can be entertained.
- Gain some experience on the typical settings used here
- Not be first to die? Maybe actually do okay?
June 1st, 2023, 11:52
(This post was last modified: June 1st, 2023, 11:56 by Mjmd.)
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I also played single player for a VERY long time before transitioning over. It certainly is a different experience.
You can find me on discord or we can communicate here. Up to you.
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(June 1st, 2023, 11:52)Mjmd Wrote: I also played single player for a VERY long time before transitioning over. It certainly is a different experience.
You can find me on discord or we can communicate here. Up to you.
Either works for me - Discord is probably more convenient, but I've never actually used Discord for anything except joining servers, so you might have to walk me through it.
June 1st, 2023, 14:23
(This post was last modified: June 1st, 2023, 14:32 by aetryn.)
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My very early thoughts on leader traits. This may all end up being irrelevant when I see the block of leaders I have to choose from of course. But reporting is about sharing, so...
Traits I'm leery of:
Philosophical: There's a lot of games running or recently concluded where people have used this to good effect. But I'm not as familiar with running specialist economies, and this feels really swingy - like I could do something tricky that could be amazing but you could totally swing and miss and be left way behind, in a way that just raw economic potential (through extra commerce or cost saving) doesn't as much? And I'm very worried about my intuition of early/late is going to be way off from the change from Epic->Quick, and that feels like it could affect the value of this trait. I'm probably erring on the side of playing a more vanilla, less tricky game here, so this doesn't feel like a trait I'm angling for in my first game.
Industrious: Kind of in the same boat as Philosophical, but even more timing considerations in terms of Epic->Quick. I don't want to totally ignore wonders, but I also don't know that I want to invest my leader strength here. I also probably like Forges too much in single-player, so I'm not sure whether a trait that encourages me to build them is a good thing (to compensate for me probably choosing to build too many) or a bad thing (to stop me from learning the discipline not to build them where I shouldn't).
Traits I'm thinking particularly about:
Creative: Going to depend on the map, but just gives so much more freedom to place cities. On a lush map, that probably doesn't matter as much, but not entirely sure what we're going to get here. Might be too much of a crutch. But might also clear one thing (how to manage border pops) out of the way for easier concentration on other facets of the opening.
Charismatic: Not with Creative, but instead - with the cheaper monuments providing somewhat of the same effect. Far weaker in terms of solving border pops, but it does come with a nice happiness bonus, which could be needed (again, somewhat depends on the map)
Protective: Possible econ trait, seems to have gotten good mileage in CTH. I'm a bit unsure as to whether this trait discourages trading/Open Borders/impairs diplomacy because non-Protectives see the relationship as asymmetrical.
Aggressive: Why am I listing this as a trait of interest when I've said I'm more of a buildery type? Well, it's kind of an economic trait with the army maintenance cost savings, and in some cases from reading lurker thread turn breakdowns, it's actually been better than some of the other econ traits. I think the thing that drawing me to look at it is that it makes that balance of "how much military do I build to not look soft and inviting but not cost so much that I'm committed to a war of conquest" a bit easier to manage. Maybe that's not enough of a reason to grab it, but I'm mostly just putting it here to remind myself that is IS an econ trait, and that it's worth considering just in that context.
Traits I don't have anything profound to say about:
Financial: Still good, though slower on non-coastal starts.
Spiritual: Given the civic changes in CTH, it might be useful to be able to easily switch. But might veer a bit into "tricky" territory. It would be interesting to see analysis of yields gained by this trait, but it would be so hard to calculate because the lack of cost to switching civics makes switching civics a lot more attractive for temporary situations than it would otherwise be, and those would be almost impossible to record. I suspect it's a better econ trait than I think it is, but probably not in my hands in a first game.
Expansive: Fast granaries are obviously good, but not that much else there. Fine, just not exciting.
Organized: Nice long-term econ trait. Almost certainly would want this paired with something faster to not be too backloaded.
Imperialistic: Fast settlers to set the snowball rolling, again obviously good, just doesn't really excite me.
Mjmd, any thoughts from someone who has played this mod a few times and has also been through the SP->MP transition?
June 1st, 2023, 14:35
(This post was last modified: June 1st, 2023, 14:36 by Mjmd.)
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So there are two factors that I think massively alter this game trait analysis vs a "normal" game.
1) monarch. On emperor I value org quite a bit and in general having an econ trait. I still value econ on monarch, but while I basically avoid imp unless forced to on emperor, it is more worth consideration. I don't know if I would choose org with this set up. I would still consider Fin as an econ trait as I think has potential to go long.
2) 4 players. Low # of players alters value of things like protective and Industrious. Trade embargoes are easier to do / its harder to fill routes so protective goes up somewhat. This is especially true once / if people go into mercantalism. I usually really only like protective if you plan on grabbing great lighthouse, but still worth considering in this set up. Depending on start* I do like industrious the less people there are and it doesn't get much lower than 4. Another to consider with 4 and why I was pushing for 5 is that once it becomes clear who is winning it will be pretty natural for the other two to gang up so you want to really be able to pull away and defend once that happens or break through if you are on other side.
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In general I would choose one of the following:
Cha, cre, or ind grab stonehenge. I just really like ways to pop borders easily.
Then I would choose an econ trait. The exception is possible if you choose ind and then a civ with early econ building then maybe Imp.
We will see what we get in spreadsheet., but again general thoughts are fun.
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(June 1st, 2023, 14:38)Mjmd Wrote: In general I would choose one of the following:
Cha, cre, or ind grab stonehenge. I just really like ways to pop borders easily.
Then I would choose an econ trait. The exception is possible if you choose ind and then a civ with early econ building then maybe Imp.
We will see what we get in spreadsheet., but again general thoughts are fun.
That is basically what I was aiming for. An easy way to pop borders + an econ trait. And yeah, Financial is a fine econ trait. I hadn't thought about Ind->Stonehenge, but yeah, that could work out if it lines up better with the econ traits available in my block, especially if my block has a lot of the other Ind leaders, so there's less chance of competition for Stonehenge.
June 2nd, 2023, 12:41
(This post was last modified: June 2nd, 2023, 12:41 by Mjmd.)
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Obviously a lot will depend on start pic, but initial thoughts? I have some, but player first is the rule.
Specifically Aetyn don't read this:
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Let's take a look at the leaders from a "help-with-borders" perspective
Creative leaders - Suryavarman: CRE / EXP - Not really excited about Expansive, but it's not the worst
- Pericles: CRE / PHI - Probably prefer Sury since I'm not confident about using PHI well, but it probably has more potential interesting things to do with it than Expansive.
Charismatic leaders: - Washington: CHA / EXP - Wow, did I seriously just get the same combos with Charismatic as I did with Creative?
- Lincoln: CHA / PHI - Again with the Philosophical combo.
Industrious leaders: - Stalin: AGG / IND - Only IND leader in my selection means there's a lot of other ones out there for other players to take. Will have to look at their selections and guess if they have better options
Other leaders: - Justinian: SPI / IMP - Probably not what I want
- Mansa: SPI / FIN - A little better than Justinian
- GK: AGG / IMP - Probably would prefer Stalin to GK here.
- Suleiman: PHI / IMP - Just tossing this one out immediately
- Victoria: FIN / IMP - Well, she's got a good start with IMP and a good later game with FIN, but no border help and no war help.
Clearly the random rolls did not pan out how I was hoping. Was hoping for one of CRE/CHA with PRO/FIN/AGG, and specifically was looking to avoid PHI and probably SPI. And... no Protective at all, and a lot of Imperialistic which... well, wasn't really what I was looking for.
Initial thoughts:
How viable is Stalin here? Agg CAN be an econ trait and it does provide some help with war, but I pretty much have to get Stonehenge to make this work well.
Second choice is probably Sury or Washington, depending on which border popping trait I prefer
Finally, if I'm willing to go without border help, it's probably Victoria.
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Let's look at the civs I was dealt now. This is obviously going to be a LOT more map dependent than the leader choice, but we can entertain thoughts about UU/UB and general tech strength.
Inca: Agriculture / Mysticism, OK but not great. I'm not going to be rushing anyone with Quecha and barbs are off, so the UU is minimally valuable. But the UB is interesting. It's obviously a lot weaker in CtH, but I have two expansive leaders being considered, and it's a cheaper version, so we'd be looking at REALLY cheap granaries. It's a bit all-in on granary spam, but there are worse things to be all-in on.
Greek: Fishing / Hunting, pretty bad unless they match the map start. I'm not sure what to think about CtH Phalanx, since it's now a spear replacement. Does it keep the +50% against melee? If not, seems like a weak unit, though I suppose it's good defense against a Horse Archer rush. Odeon doesn't excite me here - Colosseums don't seem like that useful a building and the Odeon doesn't seem like it's a significant upgrade.
Japanese: Fishing / The Wheel, again, not really good unless we get a coastal start. Samurai are an okay UU at an era we'll probably get to. Tatara gives some extra XP on Forges, which I like, but would probably need to be paired with IND to work well. Could go okay with Stalin.
Malian: Mining / The Wheel. Probably okay techs if it's not an Animal Husbandry food start and there are forests to chop with early BW. Skirmishers are good for fending off an early rush, but won't matter in the midgame when it's more likely to be important to defend. Mints again a Forge replacement, but pretty underwhelming bonus. Solid meh.
Mongolian: Hunting / The Wheel, lots of pretty middle of the pack map-dependent tech combos here. Keshiks are Horse Archers, which seems pretty good, but not sure how useful the bonus is going to be, and combines well with Gers, which also help Knights later. Pretty warlike combo, but could help compensate for a Sury pick that is more on the econ side.
Ottoman: Agriculture / The Wheel, best set of techs so far, assuming normal food starts. Janissaries - kind of late, but we probably get there. What's the shelf life on this unit like though? Often see games where Muskets get very little play before Rifles come out. Does make the pressure on getting rifles a littler less. Hammans are clearly quite nice. This is probably the best "generic" civ pick with an grain/animals start if not trying to combo with anything.
HRE: Hunting / Mysticism - don't like these techs, and I have better Hunting options if I roll lots of Deer. Landsknecht - pikes mostly for defending against Knights, not other melee units. It's better than something super early or super late, but I'm not seeing anything particularly special here. Rathaus have been a favorite in the past in RB, but on Monarch we don't necessarily expect maintenance to be crippling.
Some of this will depend on the start, but it's looking like:
Sury or Washington with Inca (and Mysticism helps Washington here).
Stalin with Japan if it's a coastal roll, and I'm comfortable taking Industrious.
??? / Mongolia if it's a hunting heavy start?
Vicki / Ottomans for a heavy econ start.
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