June 2nd, 2023, 12:44
(This post was last modified: June 2nd, 2023, 12:49 by Tarkeel.)
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Choices are in:
Player
Greenline
Civ
Korean (Mining/Mysticism)
American (Agriculture/Fishing)
Sumerian (Agriculture/Wheel)
Babylonian (Agriculture/Wheel)
English (Fishing/Mining)
Byzantine (Mysticism/Wheel)
Ethiopian (Hunting/Mining)
Leader
Catherine (CRE/IMP)
Hatshepsut (CRE/SPI)
Bismarck (EXP/IND)
Hannibal (CHA/FIN)
Louis (CRE/IND)
Mao Zedong (EXP/PRO)
Zara Yacob (CRE/ORG)
Ramesses (IND/SPI)
Peter (EXP/PHI)
Wang Kon (FIN/PRO)
I'll let you react to them before chiming in.
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Predictions for other players:
Xist w/Superdeath:
Rome or China seems the obvious civ choices here.
Leaders are more of a mixed bag; Cyrus or Joao are passable IMP leaders if you can handle the economic downsides. Qin (PRO/IND) would be a sign they are coastal and are targeting The Good Lighthouse. Shaka of Rome is also an option; I doubt they will backslide into Boudica.
Aetryn w/Mjmd:
I know Mjmd has a softspot for Mali, almost as big as his love of India. Most of the others are possible picks, but I doubt they will take Mongolia.
Several good leaders here, but again Mjmd loves Viccy. Could also see them going with Sury, or Stalin of Japan, or another IND leader of Mali.
Bing (w/civac?)
Predicting Bing is hard, but of these civs I think he'll go for wither Carthage or Khmer.
Julius is perhaps the best leader in CtH on emperor, but both Willem and Giggles are good candidates as well.
I think civac would pick Giggles of France.
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Alright. Starting with the leaders : going to scratch off the ones I don't want to play:
Catherine
Hatshepsut (anti synergy, too slow)
Bismarck (already played IND, IND relies too much on wonder planning)
Hannibal (already played this exact leader)
Louis (same story with bismarck)
Mao Zedong
Zara Yacob
Ramesses (as above)
Peter
Wang Kon (too slow)
Happy to see Mao and Cathy there. Zara is always good, but not as good on monarch as emperor. Still not worth discounting. Peter is OK, Philosophical was buffed in this mod even though it was already a fine trait, but I don't particularly care for bulbing strategies so that would be near the end of my list. So I'm really just focused on choosing between Cathy and Mao unless there's a real good Zara synergy. As for the civs, it will be a bit preemptive to analyze them before we have starts, but might as well.
Korean
American
Sumerian
Babylonian
English
Byzantine
Ethiopian
Ethiopia probably has the worst UB in this mod, a monument that pops borders slightly faster. The Oromo is not a bad UU, but you kind of have to go all in with it with the civ, because it's the only thing it has. Not picking them.
Sumer is awesome. The malus to the Vulture against melees only matters if you are getting axe rushed on a tiny map. They defend better against horse archers and swords. A cheaper courthouse that you get at priesthood rules. Great starting techs. 50% chance I pick them straight up.
America is also really good. UU is solid and the UB enables unique and powerful strategies. Wants Cathy or Zara to boost the library. Not sure if the way to go would be using it for early merchants or an easy engineer. I probably won't take them because I don't like planning for GPs, but I figure the other players will be jealous I turned this down.
Babylon is... okay. Usually you don't build a lot of colosseums. It might be neat with a CHM leader if this was a random map without many luxuries, but I doubt that will be the case here. The bowman does... something, but it sucks compared to Cho-Ku-Nus. Not picking them.
Korea is a little better than Babylon. A catapult UU has a very long shelf life even if the benefits are minor. The UB would pair well with Peter, but I don't want to play PHI, so pass.
Byzantines are the other one I was seriously considering. Cataphracts are untouched Str 12 gods in the medieval era and you don't get a serious upgrade until cavalry. How good they will be really depends on the start - if the techs work for it, then I might pick them, probably with Mao to ensure some kind of economic boost. I forgot what the UB does, but it probably sucks.
England is perfectly okay but boring. A rifle UU makes a naval attack make more sense, instead of berserkers or samurai that you have to rely on some Astro bulb or pay through the neck to upgrade into grenadiers. The stock exchange makes a bit of extra cash. Probably will not pick.
So it really comes down to Mao / Byz, or Cathy / Sumer for me, at least with no start to look at. Curious to see what you think.
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I absolutely expect superdeath to give terrible advice to pick shaka of rome and go for an early rush, given his performance in the last few games. Here is hoping xist is not my neighbor.
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IND really isn't about the wonders, but the cheaper forges. They go from a luxury to something every city 2-whips the turn after MetalCasting.
For civs it really depends on which starting techs are required.
Ethiopia main has hunting/mining going for it, and can be worth picking for that alone.
Byzantium is strong on paper, but you have slow starting techs and everyone knows what your plan is and will preempt it.
England is solid but on the boring side, but my favorite fishing start here.
America would also do in a fishing start, and I wouldn't mind testing the new UB some more.
Sumeria looks very strong, but you sort of have to do the religion game which is riskier with blind picks. Doubt anyone else will take a mysticism civ though.
Korea and Babylon are decent I suppose, but I don't inspire me.
Mao is one of the best leaders here IMHO, but no clear synergies with Byz or Sumeria. PRO redcoats on the other hand...
Peter would be good with America, but so would Louis or even Zara (heck, even Cathy!).
Ramesses would be an interesting pairing with Sumeria, looking to speed up Oracle into something fun; either Monarchy for civics or MetalCasting for early forges. SPI works pretty good with the religious line.
I think Ramesses of Sumeria, Mao of England or Louis of America are all good picks. Hannibal is possibly the best leader for Byz here.
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My experience with playing an IND leader in BtS was that the forges alone aren't good enough - if you don't make a play for at least ( Henge / GLH / Oracle ) then you're lugging around a dead trait until you can even get to Metal Casting, which tends to come a while after Currency. It is easier to get the forges online here with the discount on the tech, but I still would rather put the emphasis on expanding first rather than a potentially risky wonder play.
The 'plan' you get with phracts isn't something that other players can react to well, IMO. Knights are just a good unit and they come at an era where offensive warfare becomes economically viable. You can rush to pikes if your neighbor is Byz, but the tech path is worse for engineering, and they can always just attack someone who isn't you - plus the cataphract keeps a shelf life for the next era of military tech. I would be concerned about being rushed / pink dotted by someone for picking Byz, which is why Mao makes the most sense with me to pair with them. Pink dot your neighbors first. I wouldn't pick Hannibal with them, CHM is frankly a bit of a lousy trait in this mod and it doesn't even boost their UB - wouldn't you want faster traits to speed up their start techs?
England and America would both make a fishing start easier to plan. I don't think Hunt / Mining is that powerful outside of RtR since it doesn't give you instant pastures. Maybe if the map maker throws a bunch of deer at you?
Sumer doesn't seem like a huge investment in religious techs to me. You need Myst to get to Code of Laws anyway, so getting it on priesthood instead is the main bonus. If you can snag hinduism or judiasm on the way that's just icing on the cake. I wouldn't pick Ramesses, though - I've already done an early Henge play and tried to do an early pyramids play.
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(June 2nd, 2023, 13:41)greenline Wrote: My experience with playing an IND leader in BtS was that the forges alone aren't good enough - if you don't make a play for at least ( Henge / GLH / Oracle ) then you're lugging around a dead trait until you can even get to Metal Casting, which tends to come a while after Currency. It is easier to get the forges online here with the discount on the tech, but I still would rather put the emphasis on expanding first rather than a potentially risky wonder play.
I did an analysis of this in PB58, where I was IND: AFAICT, IND didn't help me win a single wonder race, but it might have scared some players away from competing. And yes, IND is the quintessential lategame trait, so I understand why you'd avoid it.
(June 2nd, 2023, 13:41)greenline Wrote: The 'plan' you get with phracts isn't something that other players can react to well, IMO. Knights are just a good unit and they come at an era where offensive warfare becomes economically viable. You can rush to pikes if your neighbor is Byz, but the tech path is worse for engineering, and they can always just attack someone who isn't you - plus the cataphract keeps a shelf life for the next era of military tech. I would be concerned about being rushed / pink dotted by someone for picking Byz, which is why Mao makes the most sense with me to pair with them. Pink dot your neighbors first. I wouldn't pick Hannibal with them, CHM is frankly a bit of a lousy trait in this mod and it doesn't even boost their UB - wouldn't you want faster traits to speed up their start techs?
I thin one of the best things a neighbor can do against Byz is low level border harassment from the start, not letting you run a farmers gambit. I agree that Mao helps there; Hannibal was mainly for CHM to help out early whipping. That extra happy (and monument bonus) can be extremely helpful in the early game, and then FIN kicks in to accelerate phracts by a turn or two.
(June 2nd, 2023, 13:41)greenline Wrote: England and America would both make a fishing start easier to plan. I don't think Hunt / Mining is that powerful outside of RtR since it doesn't give you instant pastures. Maybe if the map maker throws a bunch of deer at you?
Yeah, hunting/mining is for when the mapmaker gives you deers. Some (ahem) are more fond of that than others.
(June 2nd, 2023, 13:41)greenline Wrote: Sumer doesn't seem like a huge investment in religious techs to me. You need Myst to get to Code of Laws anyway, so getting it on priesthood instead is the main bonus. If you can snag hinduism or judiasm on the way that's just icing on the cake. I wouldn't pick Ramesses, though - I've already done an early Henge play and tried to do an early pyramids play.
You don't need to invest in the religious line, but it could be a very good play, both bring ziggs online early and giving culture and other religious benefits. With 4 players we might even grab all of the early religions. Something to consider at least. (I also really don't like Cathy)
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The problem I saw with CHM in this mod is it doesn't have the same traits that enabled the heavy slaving in RtR / ToW. In RtR CHM just gives you 2 happy straight up, and 3 happy in ToW. The best game I saw making use of that was Krill in pb5, where he used a food heavy capital to grow to size seven right away. Another game was GermanJoey in pb somethingorother where he did heavy, heavy capital slaving to keep up with other players in expansion without having IMP or EXP. In both cases CHM seems to benefit the capital the most - but to get the 2 happy in CtH you need to build a monument there, which feels like a really bad use of early hammers. The monument boost is a little more useful in non capital cities, but it doesn't seem to hit a useful benchmark to me. A forest chop will finish a monument with or without the boost, it will still be a 1 pop whip, and you don't want to slowbuild it working a plains hill forest unless you have no other options. You can correct me if I am wrong and it's actually a good trait used by some player in one of the games, but I don't see it just from the changelogs.
The Cathy of Sumer plan wouldn't involve early religion, but just a detour on the way to currency. Since Cathy can crash your economy so easily, having cheap and early courthouses seems a good way to fix that issue while still being able to place the wide-ish creative cities and controlling borders. Going early religion on Cathy feels a waste of creative culture, though, and there'd be no practical way of getting a shrine.
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Although, a hidden anti-synergy of cathy might be that you can't abuse much wide settling of cities while spamming 2 pop settler whips because you'll strain your worker force too hard. Grr, it's too bad there's no trait here with a worker boost.
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Exactly, Cathy would use the ziggs as a tool, and not lean into the alternate play. Just trying to give you different alternatives to choose from here.
You can get a surprising amount of use from just the +1 happy early on, as you mainly want to whip 4->2. It just gives you more whips before you have to wait for the anger to wear off. It's not a full expansion trait like EXP or IMP though.
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