[PB70 Mjmd] STAND AS ONE!

[Mjmd]

Edit: realized a long post needed a song, so here is one I've used before



Ok, so lets get caught up.

I was happily building stuff in my GA. That included a lot of courthouses which gave me tech vision of both Scooter and Charriu. 

So I of course noticed when Scooter started down naval path towards Galleons. What to do? Confront diplomatically or prepare and see what happens? I choose to prepare. I had built most basic infrastructure so end of GA was longbows, maces, and some cats (although as it became more clear he was going lib Astro I stopped building these mostly).

Also noticing this I started down the naval path as well of course, you know after I accidentally teched engineering.....    Currently Notre Dame is on pause although unit movement has been nice and I have a single castle up and 1 pike built. 

Part of the reason why Notre Dame is on pause is that two turns from end of GA I realized how far behind in astro race I was (IE I learned from Scooter and SD that Scooter used some scientists for education bulb on way to lib at least that is my vague understanding). There was no way I could get to lib, but a focused push at Astro was possible, but I needed gold........ I called in my remaining 100g due from Bing. I then asked him for more gold, and without too much discussion it was provided despite him not knowing why I wanted. I guess benefit of providing free resource plus an extended loan. 

Scooter FINALLY brokered a discussion that basically went something like this:
Scooter:
Here is the deal, you give me and charriu NAPs, I guess you can take on Charriu 20 turns from now. I'll eat Bing and then when you declare on charriu I'll also take some of that (this last part I'm guessing at). 
Mjmd:
What if I let you take on Bing now and I take on Charriu
Scooter:
My way or I raze your coastal cities
Mjmd:
Some grumbles and minor adjustments to the deal

I um was not happy about this; to put it mildly. Now I've never gone back on a deal in my multiplayer civ history. Typically if you send me fish for fish and I send back / accept you count on that for at least 10 turns. 

That being said contracts signed under duress........ Well legally you don't have to honor them. Historically gunboat diplomacy lasts just as long as the gunboats stay / the threat is still there.

I was already preparing prior to Scooters "negotiations" for a war as I just kind of assumed why else would he want ships at breakneck speed. Its not like he couldn't' have popped a GA gone into org religion, and built monk buildings instead..... Oh wait he totally could have. 

I therefore already had a descent mace based army and units in queue. I then started some various diplo deception. I announced my outrage and declared a trade embargo that I had negotiated with SD (letting SD know I didn't care what he did). I'm somewhat known for hot temper, so me doing SOMETHING was kind of expected, check that box off. The real reason of course was to get his and Charrius scouts out of my territory temporally. The next part was to carefully decide when to whip. I tried to combine a few single pop whips to mixed success (showed up as 2 and 1 instead of the 3 pop I wanted in pbspy, but overall I showed 3 whips one turn, 1 whip two turns ago, and then 0 whips this last turn. This was important as I had no clue if Charriu had let him know I was following naval path / would tell him I had gotten Astro. Also, Scooter was asking about my rising power (again lots of stuff in queue some of which had been whipped a while ago for overflow purposes starting to come out, but a lot in general timed for this period). I also was unsure about SD. Now I was 90% sure about SD, but you never know, so I didn't tell him plans, didn't produce a galleon in our border city even though I had it set up. I tried verifying with Bing that SD had warned him (which would show him intent), but Bing didn't respond so I went ahead and played the turn unsure. Bing did respond that SD had warned him to whip and pbspy had showed he had started whipping. I told him to stop (again to lure them in) and set up for this next turn. I had also not told Bing until last turn (which was a condition of the deal and I wanted to make sure Bing acted naturally). 

So ya I had 4 galleons out turn I got astro loaded with 16 maces. Now only 3 of those are in range. The 4th COULD have been, but against because I wasn't sure of SD at the time I was an idiot (turn order it didn't matter if SD knew or not). So some mixed success pulling this off.  

Anyways, I'll try to post pictures this turn of the aftermath. I am sure Scooter will not be happy. 

What are peoples thoughts about deals signed under duress.

[Commodore]

What are peoples thoughts about deals signed under duress.

Whatever justification helps you sleep at night  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Qgqqqqq]

[Mjmd]

T138

I forgot to rename a city, but will. This song is um special. I should note I've avoided direct lies until very recently in my diplo.



I forgot about mid city culture so razed the moai city instead of keeping. Lost 1 mace. It doesn't look like the northern city has a forge, so will see what he can whip there, might be able to get. If not SD has promised to come in soon ish. (speaking of which evidently he is doing Taj, so I can keep MoM going longer I guess and use the next great person rather than saving. I may delay next GA depending on whipping ect.

Oh I'm at war and not in a builder mind set? So on southern island city city raider II mace took down archer. Then sent in an unpromoted mace so I could promote combat and cover. A crossbow disappeared from here last turn, so I expect a galleon in range.

And of course I accidentally unloaded 3 maces that could have been in range of it next turn........... I still have 3, but would have liked 6. Another mess up due to past turns fast playing is the 3rd macemen only had 1 promo available so couldn't take cover. We will see if he tries retaking or reinforcing northern city.

[Qgqqqqq]

I think it would be fair to say that a number of lurkers, including myself, wouldn't agree with that as a kosher move.

Did you consider any other paths? Either to outright war or trying to attack someone else with the same army?

[Mjmd]

I think it would be fair to say that a number of lurkers, including myself, wouldn't agree with that as a kosher move.

Did you consider any other paths? Either to outright war or trying to attack someone else with the same army?

So lets tackle that first bit a bit.

Not from a legal perspective. I have a solid case there mind, but I'm not sure Realms Beyond is a hub of people who like contract law.

Lets take it from a historical perspective. I want you to consider if you are secretly closet imperialists. History is LITTERED with uneven treaties being forced upon people. Obviously some of the most famous and widely criticized are those of the imperialist powers colonizing or exploiting various areas around the time of a lot of my sea shanties. I mean sure lots of people in the imperialistic countries often were shocked and horrified when the native tribes and kingdoms went back on their "treaties" or just started killing the imperialists. Now mostly current most historians don't say "and x country being right bastards violated the treaty they signed", most say something like "x country being repressed by an unequal treaty decided to fight back".

I'm going to go through the entire conversation (maybe tonight maybe tomorrow), which will include the second part of Qs question, but here is the relevant part and I want you to think if anything agreed upon under such conditions is a valid deal.

scooter — 06/05/2023 9:29 AM

the best ways to gain relative to you are to jump ahead in land by splitting Bing with Charriu, or load up 25 CKNs on Galleons and fork a dozen of your cities at once and see what happens. And the latter option is less appealing

[Mjmd]

So fun fact desertion discipline for press ganged sailors was treated differently than enlisted sailors. Even the discipline heavy Royal Navy realized that there was a difference between being forced into service and choosing it.



So lets start with Scooters opening line which was way more threatening than I remembered

Ok, I officially have a proposal that I'd like your answer on. As you know our naval building pause expires next turn, and I will  have several Galleons immediately. I'm sure you knew this. I figure it will be awhile until others have them. To dissuade a conflict between us, I'd propose the following:


1) NAP until T160 (date negotiable)
2) NAP between you and Charriu also until T160 pending his agreement that I'm 98% sure he'd accept (date negotiable)
3) You provide 0 support whatsoever to Bing in the event that I declare on him. This includes things like tipping him of my movements/plans, gifts, loans, etc. (Not negotiable, but we can narrow down precise details.)


I'm open to returning the favor on #3 in the future if you have a plan in mind, or any alternative idea to pull you further ahead of SD so that I'm your only competition.
scooter — 06/04/2023 10:01 PM
also this offer needs an answer really before I play my next turn. I am willing to flex on a variety of things to make you good with the deal, but I must be absolutely certain you won't interfere if/when I try to take something from Bing. And I'm certain you don't want Galleons sailing in your direction, so the NAP is my return guarantee that you do not have to fear that.

I immediately let SD know; reminding him that Scooter also used threats against him in the past to get his way. 

Mjmd — 06/05/2023 8:07 AM
when does your NAP with him end?
he is basically doing same thing he did with the trade embargo with you and forcing me to except an NAP or face his military
and he wants to eat Bing while I get to do nothing ?
its a very fair deal he is presenting

I wanted to know how bold I could be, but SD didn't give me much in concrete immediate support hopes.

Anyways, back to Scooter and the answer to Qs question of did I consider other options. The answer was IMMEDIATELY, but I got NO WHERE with Scooter. To note the screenshot in here is FROM Scooter at a prior date.

Mjmd — 06/05/2023 8:06 AM
Even though I didn't think it would be this soon I was thinking more this option

so cutting #2 from your above
scooter — 06/05/2023 8:13 AM
I’d like a window here where charriu is able to participate to some degree against Bing. You indicated you were a ways from it anyway, so I figured this aligns.
Even though frankly he’s unlikely to do that much
scooter — 06/05/2023 8:22 AM
i imagine for example if you're drafting rifles t160 is a reasonable guess
Mjmd — 06/05/2023 9:11 AM
I mean I have maces and cats I can make small gains and you can get more of bing. Weakening charriu before his uu would be nice.
scooter — 06/05/2023 9:23 AM
I don't really see how I'd benefit. I've sacrificed an absolute ton on this astro beeline. It's the best power spike I'm going to get, and agreeing to that now lets you walk onto the frankly weaker neighbor. I need to have a window here where I can make serious gains from the investment
Mjmd — 06/05/2023 9:24 AM
Look at my charriu border
Now imagine how much gain I can make with a stack of 1 movers
Its 2
But that is not 0
Bing is at 15 cities?
Seems like more than 2
scooter — 06/05/2023 9:27 AM
I proposed something that will let you make all the gains you want in like 25 turns. call it 20 if you want
Mjmd — 06/05/2023 9:28 AM
Why not let me do a non zero amount to charriu while you do more to bing?
scooter — 06/05/2023 9:28 AM
because I put all my chips on this in order to gain relative to you
Mjmd — 06/05/2023 9:29 AM
I mean if I'm at war with charriu I'm not backstabbing you

I um am highlighting this last part as this is the CLOSEST I came to threatening him back, but as with most of my diplo its also true. Although, in all fairness I was vastly altering what I thought him and I would get of Charriu and Bing respectively, but what I was proposing was a deal of equals. A deal that benefited both of us. Now I want to note I would have been fine with a deal where he benefited more. I've CONSTANTLY been trying to get SD to agree to these, where he gets more than me, but we both get something. My current deal is actually I distract Scooter and then SD gets to conquer all of him while I help. SD gets more, I get something.

Then of course he brings up the threat again as I've already posted.

scooter — 06/05/2023 9:29 AM

the best ways to gain relative to you are to jump ahead in land by splitting Bing with Charriu, or load up 25 CKNs on Galleons and fork a dozen of your cities at once and see what happens. And the latter option is less appealing

After that I stopped trying to find an alternative Q. We had some more discussion on exact details of deal, but it was mainly me trying to pretend to care.

Scooter acted like a technologically superior imperialistic power. My deal or you die. His mistake of course was that I was aware of his tech path for turns and reacted accordingly. I tried negotiating a deal that didn't involve me going back on a deal, but at the end of the day I had to be like a technologically unprepared nation and accept the deal forced upon me. Like many nations through history I didn't just sit there and accept it. Judge me if you must, but historically I am not an anomaly and if you make me go into boring legal stuff I also check out there.

[Qgqqqqq]

Dude, I'm a global lurker, so obviously there's a lot I'm not going to say in a circumstance like this. But I think you can pull back on some of the "contracts don't count under duress" language. Quite apart from the applicableness of that to a online multiplayer game, as a lawyer who took theories of contract law, I don't think you've a leg to stand on. Especially as you acknowledge that he wasn't in a position to place you under duress!

He's a technologically and militarily equivalent power. You signed a deal. Under NZ law the equivalent would be enforceable - there was an offer, acceptance (supported by negotiation), clauses that benefit each party (at least arguably). You then broke that deal before the ink was dry. You did so in a way that demonstrated forethought and pur the lie to any argument that it was duress.

If you were parties to a contract, he'd be entitled to damages or specific performance, and arguably even exemplary damages based on the circumstances.

If you want to talk about nation states and treaties, then you are not some backward number four player stabbing the imperialistic game leader. You are an arguable top dog who could have spat on the deal and fought him, or told him you weren't accepting and bullied for something else. You had lots of options, and you chose this one. No one forced you to lie. The fact that you told a hundred truths and then betrayed when the chips were down and it mattered most is not you being a honest broker forced into betrayal. Again, this would be an egregious treaty breach that would have you decried in international relations.

Thankfully, this wasn't a contract. Its not international relations. It's a game, where the rules if not the etiquette make your actions perfectly justifiable. But please, justify it based on your desires, how you believe a diplomacy game should be played, and the in-game situation. There are lurkers who would say that it's part of what you sign up for in a diplo (or non diplo) game. I can respect that. I can't respect this litigating or excusing it on other grounds.

[Mjmd]

So the key thing is HE WASN'T AT THE TIME. He had military advantage, he threatened to use it. Sure I was planning on getting parity, but I wasn't there yet. Tell me how it isn't duress to say "do this or I fork all your cities and burn them".

Edit: I'm pretty sure history goes a lot differently if China gets access to a few dozen ship of the line suddenly. Just as a random example, but I can come up with more.

[Mjmd]

I mean you are right Q I could have said "no I'm not accepting this deal you want to force on me, come and boat me". That was an option I didn't take. I'll accept that fault.