Alright, I sort of promised last night that once I cooled down I'd go over this a bit more. I want to make clear for all future games that Mjmd = diplo scumbag. I think this is the most blatantly dirty NAP-stab in RB history, though I'm open to alternate candidates, so I want to make sure he really gets his reputation from that. (I think the Athlete/Slaze army incident from PB2 might be
nastier, but I don't think a NAP was involved, so that's sort of its own very special category.)
The following took place on June 5, T135. Mjmd had already played T135 by this point, so practically we're on T136 for him. This is the second half of our conversation.
Quote:Mjmd
Confirmed peace treaty with charriu for 155
scooter
ok cool. would you like the NAP with me to be same date or the original 160
Mjmd
Later
scooter
Ok. so to recap
1) NAP between us until T160
2) NAP between you and Charriu until T155
3) You do not help Bing in any way during the NAP - no warning him, passing info, gifts/loans, etc.
4) I'll do the same if you decide to declare on Charriu after that NAP expires.
do we agree?
Mjmd
#4 is why I would like #1 extended
scooter
you mean you want a different date than T160?
4 and 1 are def pretty strongly linked
Mjmd
I want a later date yes
scooter
ok. what do you have in mind?
Mjmd
T175. T160 is 25 turns for bing so I figure 20 turns after my charriu one expires is a fair ask
scooter
ok. Mind pushing it 5 more turns to T180 then? I only say that because I have a NAP with Superdeath until T170, and it's nice to have them a bit more staggered just to be safe.
I know it's long, but realistically neither of us has to fight each other to win this game I don't think
Mjmd
That is fine. I would have pushed for later but didn't know how far to push
scooter
yeah totally understand
Ok, so revised:
1) NAP between us until T180
2) NAP between you and Charriu until T155
3) You do not help Bing in any way during the NAP - no warning him, passing info, gifts/loans, etc. (Exception: incense can continue)
4) I'll do the same if you decide to declare on Charriu after that T155 NAP expires.
Mjmd
#3 edit to allow continuation of current incense deal
scooter
ok, yes that's fine [note: this was edited into the above message]
Mjmd
Kk
When I call this the dirtiest NAP-stab - I have a reason for this. This is the first time
that I can remember that a NAP was signed with not only 0 intention to honor any tenet of it for any turns - which itself might make it the worst. But it was signed explicitly to make an attack easier. Imagine if I had messaged Bing in the last week or two and offered him a NAP and warned him someone else was attacking him, and he moved all his units away from me. That would have made it much easier for me! It also would have been breathtakingly dirty. I won't play another diplo game obviously. I didn't intend to this time - it sort of happened by accident. But I don't think Mjmd will be able to either, because why would anyone sign a deal with him if you have to know if the deal disadvantages him in any way he will not honor it for even 5 seconds.
Let's go a step further and address his "defense" of this move.
Quote:scooter
lmao
get your money's worth nap-stabber because you will not see peace for the remainder of this game
Mjmd
I figured; you realize most contracts are void when signed under duress?
scooter
whatever you gotta tell yourself
So, if I'm following this logic, he signed this deal under "duress" and that gives him license to do this. First off, what duress was he under exactly? I was under the impression he was 15ish turns from Astro, so I felt I had some leverage to get a better deal. But he wasn't! He hit me on T138. That means he had Galleons complete the very next turn. That means when we made this deal, he was already 1 turn from Astronomy. I would not even have been able to do damage to him - I'd have needed 1-2 turns to get into range, and once I was in range he'd have Galleons out and be able to get odds on me. In fact, IF I had declared on him (which I was extremely unlikely to actually do) he could have likely trapped me and destroyed my fleet at sea AND been the defender. He probably would have won out on the trade anyway! It's insane - he was under 0 duress.
He could have just said no. That would have left him with a huge advantage - namely that I showed my cards and came away with nothing to show for it. Instead he needed to be conniving just for a larger impact. That's the difference here - I never lied to him once.
But let's review the actual terms here. How bad exactly was this deal for him?
Quote:Ok, so revised:
1) NAP between us until T180
2) NAP between you and Charriu until T155
3) You do not help Bing in any way during the NAP - no warning him, passing info, gifts/loans, etc. (Exception: incense can continue)
4) I'll do the same if you decide to declare on Charriu after that T155 NAP expires.
Point 1: Favored him, at least on paper. At least it massively favors him if he was truly under "duress."
Point 2 and 3 favor me. Crucially though, #3 especially is part of having a true NAP. It's just about closing loopholes. If I invade someone and another rival props them up, they are fighting a proxy war. In no diplo games that's fairly common because it's really hard to negotiate that out with AI diplo. However, in a true diplo game, you have to try to close that loophole.
Point 4 is me returning the favor here.
However, at this stage he supposedly had no plans to attack me, so #1 has no damage to him. If he's serious about #1, then #3 should be no damage to him. #4 is a straight return in his favor. So what did he lose here exactly? Point #2 is basically the only "injury" here. And he didn't even intend to attack him until this conversation. I know that because I talked to him a few days before.
Quote:Mjmd
I generally favor making myself stronger vs just banging my head against people
scooter
sure
but I've asked a few times and thrown out a few ideas and it still seems like you haven't really answered. Usually that means "no thanks," but I guess if that's the case I'd be curious what your endgame is. I don't imagine it's peace to the end
and while you and I can hurt each other over water just fine, we cant' really make gains off each other
Mjmd
drafted rifles is my current plan, but I'm lazy
but that is a ways down the line
so asking me to do something "soon" isn't really the plan
scooter
that makes sense
His plan was to tech to Rifles, draft, and run over Charriu. That is fully compatible with a 20T NAP with Charriu that I insisted on. Now, naturally he might want to react when he sees me making a conquest, so I understand a desire to change plans. But again,
he could have just said no thanks, he had Astronomy. It's not like I waited until I had Galleons 4 tiles from 7 of his cities to make demands - which I could have done. That would have been some extreme duress. Instead, I gave him the equivalent of 3 turns warning when he was 1 turn away. (One other side note - I actually delayed my Galleons by 1 turn in order to follow our T135 naval limitations to the letter of the law despite that deal always being much more favorable to him than me.)
In conclusion, I strongly believe Scumbag Mjmd will win this game, and he will be unable to play another diplo game again with anyone taking any deals he agrees to seriously. And this is also your reminder that diplo games are bad and always have been. If there are questions about this I'm happy to answer, but I think I got the monologue out of my system.
![[Image: 19L2.gif]](https://i.gifer.com/19L2.gif)
) or sailing north and hitting Superdeath before his Knights show up and he NAP-stabs me too which is so incredibly telegraphed at this point. Neither of these are good ideas! But it gives you an idea of the state of things that the old idea engine is spitting out stuff like this.