[PB70 Mjmd] STAND AS ONE!

[Mjmd]

So playing in games always feels VASTLY different from global lurking, but unless I'm completely not reading what Scooter wrote correctly he was threatening more than 1. I will say I've been in games where I've had random fishing villages razed and not cared too much; especially if say I was being a little stupid with the placement in the first place. Not that I would ever do such a thing.

@Pin You know what is great about Sea Shanties / songs I don't know half of those!

[Mjmd]

T140

I definitely have an English language bias, so will gladly take this from Pins list. Lord knows I've played enough songs about fisherman so one more won't go astray.



Razed two more cities this turn. Loses were relatively ok (lost a couple more maces than crossbows but then killed some lesser stuff). Will see if I lose mace up north (left in picture).



So options. What should I do now? There are a few.

1) make a push at mids holy city. Not a bad one to raze to keep SD from benefiting from.
2) Fork the other 3.
3) load up siege and land a large force on skinny island.
4) Play defensive assuming Scooter will try something. In general I assume this.

Note this doesn't account for the other direction. I'm mainly focused on building Galleons over there to defend that way, but there is AN option over there
5) Play defensively over east (where screenshot is from) use gg to create two 6 move Galleons and hope he doesn't have a patrol vessel over in west.

6) In general play defensive and wait for SD and Bing to come on in. Has side benefits of having troops back just in case Charriu breaks NAP or SD breaks NAP. Main problem is if Scooter decides to just pull everything to the island to spite me.

7) Things I'm not thinking of atm.

In all of this planning I'm also considering both timing and direction for GA. I COULD launch next turn. I have a couple spots of good overflow I could switch back to org religion and build some observatories / IF I tech education universities. This of course may be presumptuous. Changing over 6 of my cities to buildings in the midst of a war doesn't sound smart, but it MIGHT* be the play. I think*** I wait either SD or Bing to jump in?

[Qgqqqqq]

I want to be clear that I'm not speaking to the specifics of this situation, except in general terms. I referenced a single raze because that's what you said in your message.

[Mjmd]

So we were talking about what constitutes duress, and I was asking you what your level was, since you didn't think threatening to fork my entire empire was duress. I will say threatening a newly founded fishing village (which what I was trying to indicate above I probably wouldn't count either) is a lot different than 1 medium city (situation dependent), which is different from 1 good city (yes), which unless I'm completely crazy is pretty clearly a long way from threatening the forking of an entire empire, which because the map is very coastal has many good cities that are then threatened.

[Qgqqqqq]

Honestly, I don't think duress even applies conceptually. I think an existential threat (sign this or I will invade with knights and capture all your cities) would still create a circumstance where I would honour a deal. But if you grant that there is s line where someone threatening you would mean a deal isn't honoured, it's difficult to create a dividing line. Again, every time someone has a knights stack. Every time someone has an army advantage. Does it become a threaf only if spoken aloud?

If one good city is enough, then a good city on the border with a neighbour creates a state of implied duress after every military build up or tech advantage. The same with a coastal neighbour. If relative strength is the factor, than no large party should ever be entitled to trust an agreement with a small neighbour.

What is the limiting principle? Is your earlier deal with Charriu following razing one of his cities on firm ground? I just don't understand the internal logic.

[Mjmd]

Ah logic. Lets do that. You are committing the logical fallacy of straw man. And while we could argue these straw men arguments (IE arguments that aren't about the actual argument), lets not for now. This isn't about 1 city. This isn't about an implied threat.

This is about a direct threat against multiple cities. Does a direct threat against multiple cities count as duress?

[Commodore]

I suspect if you feel like a backstab isn't morally shady, you don't spend nearly this much time trying to justify your actions. This isn't a court of law, this is a computer game where you lied to the guy who saved this game by taking over from a flake, nobody is going to come arrest you. You don't need to defend yourself with a legal case, and the rep hit is over and done. You've gained a reputation as a NAP-stabber, but people tend to have short memories so most people probably won't consider your AI diplo offers worthless in standard pitbosses. People have stopped updating the PBEM list spreadsheet, so there won't even be an asterisk by your win anywhere. If anything, this is just a helpful reminder to the fresh blood why diplo games are kind of crummy, even though I don't think any of them ended with quite this level of deception.

[Mjmd]

I hate being accused of being morally shady when none of the lurkers are in the situation. Again, being a player vs a lurker is VERY different.

- I suspect many of you think I should have bravely strode forth and said, "come burn my cities". I'll accept this was AN option, but I'm betting most people PLAYING the game would not have taken this. Its very easy to say as a lurker, but I'm betting as a player you would feel differently.
- I agree I could have stuck to the terms of an agreement I was forced into. I guarantee if you were playing you would feel this was bullshit. Again, very easy to say standing well away, but when you were the one threatened, different.
- I chose the option of many nations in history and many people in other situations and went "you were holding a gun to my head this is bullshit and I'm going to do something about the fact you put a gun to my head". I take very poorly to being threatened.

I don't even know if I win this game, I've promised SD to not do anything until he is well on his way to conquering Scooter. Its not like SD isn't well known for violating peace deals so I could easily be looking at a stab after he is done there.

[Mjmd]

I think the other reason is that I'm also kind of surprised by the pushback again considering most people here are well versed in history. Again, most history now when nations violated the unequal treaties forced upon them don't blame the parties the treaties were forced upon. Unlike in games in real life I'm not a fan of war as a solution, but many times people have chosen that route. But I go against an unequal treaty forced upon me and because I wouldn't get totally killed just partially killed its considered "bad". There is a reason the British supplied the Native Americans with guns; they knew they weren't happy about the treaties forced upon them and if they had weapons to fight back they would (edit: and yet history books even in the US don't demonize them breaking those treaties). Again, I'm pretty sure we have more closet imperialists than you think. Give some Asian powers a modern navy back in the 1800s and I think many of the "treaties" that were signed under naval artillery would not have lasted long. And I doubt history would remember the Asian powers as being in the wrong. Edit: or the African nations for that matter.

[Mjmd]

I'll also say I would prefer discussion here than in the lurker thread where I can't defend myself. Edit: some people may even claim you would be dishonorable for insulting someone where they can't defend themselves, but obviously the lurkers know all about honor. 

Pin at some point if you can kindly go over the options I presented and give opinions I would appreciate it.