[PB70 Mjmd] STAND AS ONE!

[Mjmd]

Pin I am THINKING about firing off the GA once I have 3 turns tech saved up (which I may already be at) What I would do is like 3 turns or so tech for alphabet plus printing press, switch to organized religion for getting observatories out, switch back to free religion, and then teching up bottom of tree for frigates / cannon. IE I would skip long term payoff of universities and oxford and go for more economical hammer investment / time pressure options. It wouldn't put me THAT far off of rifles too if I want to go that way instead.

Again, let me know what you think of military options too.

[Qgqqqqq]

It's not a straw man - I genuinely struggle to understand how the principle you've stated could apply elsewhere. I've given my opinions about your specific situation - I think signing the deal knowing you were going to renege it is very crummy. I think Scooters intent is irrelevant given you knew that you could defend yourself and in fact attack.

I struggle to see how the situation would have changed much by giving him 1-2t warning you might be coming - slightly more even perhaps, perhaps you take a couple of losses on the chin? I think that in your specific situation you weren't remotely under 'duress' as one of the top nations with a substantial military. I think that comparisons to Asian nations in the 19th century, to Native Americans, to the Treaty of Versailles are highly distasteful - you're not a backward, cowed nation humiliated into a sovereignty-violating deal struggling against the oppressor. I have thoughts on the exact nature of the deal, but I'm not going to share them as a global lurker.

Yes it's different being a player from a lurker. Both Comm and I have played, him in diplo. And you know what, perhaps I would have balked at losing cities. But I would have done that by signing a NAP and then following it, even if that was a bad deal. Cause I'm a coward and a builder who doesn't like my sandcastles being kicked.

EitB55 spoilers:

In a way, that's what I've done. Signing peace with a player I see as a frontrunner who's going to grow beyond me because I get too exhausted checking for 10-movers who could raze my cities. I complain about it sure, but as a player I'd rather not go into existential conflict. But I wouldn't stab - in FFH2 you can break peace treaties via spells, for instance - but I would never use that to stab auro even if it meant I would lose.

[Qgqqqqq]

Ah logic. Lets do that. You are committing the logical fallacy of straw man. And while we could argue these straw men arguments (IE arguments that aren't about the actual argument), lets not for now. This isn't about 1 city. This isn't about an implied threat.

This is about a direct threat against multiple cities. Does a direct threat against multiple cities count as duress?

Sorry I didn't address this. I wouldn't see a deal where multiple of my cities were threatened to be razed as grounds to renege on that deal. Because I don't see duress, however defined, as a grounds for breaking a NAP.

[Mjmd]

Again, because I'm strong but don't currently have a gun, but will, I should abide by a contract I was forced into signing with someone who had a gun pointed at me at the time, but is slightly less strong than me? That is basically your argument? Let me know what I'm getting wrong here.

I used the easiest historical analogies as they are the easiest for people to understand going back on a deal signed against your will ISNT wrong. Most people understand that historically and morally. That is why I asked the question about one of those nations acquiring technology and then going back; it was to get you to think. After their civil war / restoration it isn't surprising that the Japanese went on one of the most impressive fleet modernizations in history for example, but it still took 40 years before they could start dictating terms / negotiating as equals. The fact my tech wasn't that far away and that reality was closer (and much easier to do) than historically doesn't change the core tenant of the argument.

I'm glad I at least moved your argument from "it wasn't duress" to "I'm not willing to define duress and it isn't grounds". Again, legally it is. I would again recommend answering my first paragraph.

[Commodore]

I'm glad I at least moved your argument from "it wasn't duress" to "I'm not willing to define duress and it isn't grounds". Again, legally it is. I would again recommend answering my first paragraph.

It was not, legally, duress. Because this is, again, a computer game.

[Mjmd]

I'm glad I at least moved your argument from "it wasn't duress" to "I'm not willing to define duress and it isn't grounds". Again, legally it is. I would again recommend answering my first paragraph.

It was not, legally, duress. Because this is, again, a computer game.

Can we all confirm that my arguments are good OUTSIDE a computer game?

Therefore if in a game I choose to apply outside logic to my in game circumstance should I be demonized for it?

[greenline]

[Mjmd]

I'm big into logical argument and like it quite a bit. 

[Mjmd]

I'm glad I at least moved your argument from "it wasn't duress" to "I'm not willing to define duress and it isn't grounds". Again, legally it is. I would again recommend answering my first paragraph.

It was not, legally, duress. Because this is, again, a computer game.

Can we all confirm that my arguments are good OUTSIDE a computer game?

Therefore if in a game I choose to apply outside logic to my in game circumstance should I be demonized for it?

I wonder if what I'm missing is that I wasn't around at the time of the last diplo games. I only have outside logic and historical examples to draw from. Of course I'm using those and being really confused by peoples confusion. Maybe there is an ancient code of honor around NAPs Commodore is more in tune with being an old school player that I'm unaware of.

[Commodore]

You're not in a court of law, and the jury's already cast the verdict on in court of public opinion, I'm not sure what you hope to gain at this point?

In-game, what's the current plan to wrap this up? You mentioned letting SD fight Scooter, so I assume you'll be attacking Charriu with galleons + knights soon?