[PB72 SPOILERS] Aetryn learns humility

[aetryn]

As I mentioned to Aetryn over discord I also find this odd..... It is very reasonable to settle for horses instead of copper on a larger map so we could have chariots. Now maybe some of that power bump is a spear coming up from his 2nd, but why push 1 axe out ahead like this?

But yes it is kind of pointlessly slowing both of us down because he is making an axe push against Mali......... So sure it forces some awkward tech and chops, but Aetryn is imp can make that up. Why not wait to use your whips for a unit that can actually take on a skirmisher? Now any units Aetryn builds will just have a lot of turns to fortify before a praet push.

And ya we talked about two pop whipping vs one pop if at all possible a bit.

Although I love Patience 1 pop whipping a settler, you just never see it even with imp. (or is this just a slow build?; I know you had micro for #6 but not in touch with. In any case size 2 city producing a settler is also cool still).

It's a slow build for the triple-silver 6-lake city in the northeast. With the copper online it's a 6.25 turn build with IMP, which is pretty nuts. Finishes T59, settles T64 right when the road finishes. I think the work boat is one turn behind that pace but should work out roughly okay. Whether I let it grow next or just build the next settler in another 6ish turns will depend on whether I have worker labor spare to improve two more of its tiles. Given the current military situation I'm leaning toward growing on a skirmisher.

[Mjmd]

Depending how things look I would actually grow on a granary at Patience to size 3 /4. If nothing else growing to size 3 makes sense with borders expanding to plains cow. Make sure to have a worker around to get that online if you do this. Also, why I was thinking maybe grow all the way to 4 because if you have worker over there might as well improve more tiles in the area. If you don't have the available worker labor maybe best to keep at size 2, but in that case next build maybe should be worker instead of settler.

Its always a little awkward to build granaries at cities that won't whip much, but specifically it will really help get those later mine tiles online sooner, which is good to prepare for praet push. It also makes whipping in a forge / courthouse later less painful.

As far as short term defense I would lean towards just chopping out 1 skirm in Prudence next. They attack out better than archers but not still want to lean mainly on axes. Even if you have 3 units and he has 3-4 axes (I would suspect 1 is a spear), you should be able to hold easy.

At diligence you can finish chop there to finish granary after the whip and overflow into a skirm to garrison there just in case.

[aetryn]

T56: Preparing for war

Our exploring scout meets an exploring Byzantine warrior:



It's unclear where his cities are located, but he's surely too far away to be sending large quantities of axes at me (and probably too far to be a likely Cataphract target, too). While I like the uniqueness of this map, I am not sure it was good for a 4-player game. It appears very likely that we have pairs that are close to each other and we'll struggle to interact in any way with the other teams until significantly later in the game (especially given the costs of expansion). This makes it more appealing to do something to win an immediate duel that you wouldn't do in a more open game where anyone could attack anyone, as you are can have many turns to catch up even if you sacrificed significantly to win the duel. I was expecting to the start locations to be more balanced in a diagonal pattern or something so I'd at least have two close neighbors, instead of one directly south of me, but this is the map we're playing.

Peaceful settlement continues in the north:



The worker on the ivory will build a road over the next 2 turns to actually give us the happiness benefit of the ivory, then move southwest to pasture the cow for Patience - it arrives 1 turn early, but can spend that turn building part of a road or something. The settler is heading to city site 5, due to be founded in 2 turns. One worker is building a road to the northeast for city site 6, the other will improve the sheep for the new city. The capital is building a workboat to send up to City 6 (I assume the seas must connect, as it's virtually impossible for the body of water near City 6 to be saltwater if it doesn't - this is the absolute top of the map, there is nothing beyond that row of tiles. Anyway, the boat will arrive I believe 1-2 turns after the city is founded and help get that city off the ground.

Down in the south, the march to war continues:



Farewell, brave Malian citizens who... died through whipping to equip some defenders and look, this is morally dubious but Civ 4 isn't really the avenue to discuss this kind of thing. Next turn I'll have two axes to counter the now two that are headed north. He also has 2 more unaccounted for, and went up ANOTHER 4k soldiers this turn, which is probably a spear. I can't realistically chop for Prudence until borders expand, so the southern worker is finishing the road, while the other worker starts chopping a forest that could be used as defensive cover in some circumstances, hopefully finishing the chop the turn Skirmishers are available to build. Situation is still tense here - until I get 2 Skirmishers stuffed into Prudence it probably can't defend 4 axes, but if he's content to stream them in slowly and let the borders expand, I will probably be okay.

Rome adds another 4k soldiers this turn - probably a spear. I assume he's probably not going to attack with that too, but hey, what do I know?

Rome's military buildup (does not include this turn's increase):

[aetryn]

Unfortunately I'm going to have to request a reload this time. I've made stupid clicks before and ate the penalty, but here I was trying to get the axe deselected so I could get a screenshot without the axe icon pointing offscreen and accidentally moved him out of the city, cancelling fortify bonuses I am going to need to survive this:




I'm sorry to do this, but this was purely a mechanical accident. As an aside, how on earth do I get the stupid unit pointer to GO AWAY when I want to take a screenshot somewhere else?

[Mjmd]

Since this is a greens game I think this is a pretty clear reload. Aetryn already passed up on one not that it matters.

Lurkers let us know so we can get game back on the road.

[aetryn]

T57

Behold the land of Byzantium Readerium:




Looks like they have bacon too! Wonder if they season it differently?

Anyway, this probably means Bing is to the north somewhere. I'm going to poke around and get the shape of Greenline's land figured out and then head north to try to find the Aztecs.

On the war front, I moved the scout into the city to try to preserve it, he has a warrior coming from the new city to join the attack as well, so not a lot I can do at this point except get the scout whacked if I leave it out. He can for sure see one of my axes now - I don't think he can see the forest where the other one is, so he may move in, but he shouldn't be able to move and then declare war and enter borders, so I should be able to get the axe visible before he has the chance to declare. At that point does he turn around again? Or take his chances? If he waits for the second axe to catch up I'll get borders popped and an extra 20% city defense. I really hate that he has a forest to hide in, but I just feasibly couldn't chop it yet. If I can get control of the situation, it's high on my to-do list.

New city founds next turn, so we're trying to keep on with this "empire growth" thing while the southern front remains tense.

[Commodore]

Now that you've reloaded, why did you not feel like pushing your axe into the forest would have been worth it? Either he goes to over the river, which gives you a full +25% extra defense, or he delays an extra turn going north.

Really appreciate the reporting, good newbie turn so far.

[Mjmd]

I actually floated idea of keeping it there as well. But there is an non 0 chance of chariot follow up.

@Aetryn: it looks llike Byzantium capital is NE of your scout, which to me means Bing is south somewhere? Maybe like you are far north, Bing is far south?

[aetryn]

Now that you've reloaded, why did you not feel like pushing your axe into the forest would have been worth it? Either he goes to over the river, which gives you a full +25% extra defense, or he delays an extra turn going north.

Really appreciate the reporting, good newbie turn so far.

I would say I'm probably a bit risk averse here - afraid my axe would get killed in isolation and then have no way to hold the city, and wanting the fortification bonus to cancel out the benefit his troops have from Aggressive. I also hold out some (dim) hope that he'll see a city stacked with 2 axes and just turn around, but maybe it would have been just as deterring having one axe in the city and one in the forest. This is really my absolute first contact with MP war, so I've probably got all kinds of things wrong. I also don't know that my read on his troops (4 axes, 1 spear, various warriors) is actually correct, and I'm a little leery of relying on it so far. I think generally the answer is "lack of confidence". Ultimately delaying him a turn would have been really valuable because borders pop on T60, and I probably have a Skirmisher completing T61, so every turn he waits my defense just gets stronger.

Thanks for the feedback on the reporting. Sometimes it feels like player threads are a bit less interactive these days, partly because we are ever more conscious of not spoiling games, and partly because a lot of the discussion has been had in previous games. It's good to get a bit of encouragement to keep at it now and again.

[scooter]

Sometimes it feels like player threads are a bit less interactive these days, partly because we are ever more conscious of not spoiling games, and partly because a lot of the discussion has been had in previous games. It's good to get a bit of encouragement to keep at it now and again.

Yeah I think there's a few things going on.


1) You're right that there's more caution from lurkers than I think I would prefer. I think it's just a thing that unfolded naturally because some of the highest profile games had lurker comments that went too far and influenced the game, so over time we over-corrected a notch. I would prefer like 20% less cautious, but it's not a huge deal I don't think.


2) There are genuinely fewer active folks these days which is understandable.


3) I can only speak for myself, but I think ancient era is really boring in standard games, so I tend to not follow so closely until borders start touching. I think this is a common feeling that is rarely expressed, and this is part of why I’ve pushed for more non-standard games. But the larger point is when the game heats up, if it’s competitive, interesting, and well-reported, the lurkers will arrive. For example, I felt like I was keeping a very well-reported PB70 thread, and yet lurkers were borderline absent until conflict started, at which point that sub-forum blew up. I think if you keep reporting well and you’re in an interesting mid-game position, interest will pick up naturally.