[PB70] Charriu tries to promote the arts again

[Commodore]

Really bummed you're leaving the forum. You're consistently a delight as a member.

[Charriu]

Well I don't plan to delete my account, so there's always the possibility that I return.

[Charriu]

The song



Music: Symphonic Odysseys - Blue Dragon

I reserved something very special for the end of this PB and musical journey. This is one of my all time favorite performances of a video game song. The solo violin from the concertmaster alone is amazing. But the violin isn't that 'solo' as it is backed up by a beautiful background arrangement. Especially at the end when the orchestra more and more sounds like waves of water. Just enjoy it.

T177:

---

And there it is the game has stopped and I have to congratulate Mjmd to his (first?) victory in a PB. My elimination was inevitable as I would not have conceded. As for why I would not have conceded. I talked about that, people in general concede way to early here. I myself am thoroughly burned out from playing here as I already said, so I won't do a big analysis of my highs and lows during the game. But I still wanted to address a few things.

First for my mistakes. I think the first real big mistake was loosing the city in the initial trade embargo. I had the option to whip in a spearman in the city, but I absolutely underestimated the speed at which Mjmd could and would react to the trade embargo. I did more mistakes in this game, but no mistake was as crucial as that one.
As for my playstyle settling scientists. I think I proved that one can get a decisive early tech advantage with this kind of play. There certainly was the option to go for a very early guilds around T120, which would have caught any of my neighbors by surprise. I didn't go for that option as it is boring, but it's a possibility. The only thing that needs refinement is early expansion with this strategy. I did loose some city spots to Bing. Then again he pretty much pink dotted me with his 4th city, which was unexpecting. Let's talk about the other players though.

Bing: I cannot say how frustrating it was to play with you. And I'm not talking about the pinkdotting, but rather the silence. Why did you only start talking after more then half the game was done. This is a diplo game. Talking with the others is kind of the reason to play a diplo game. Please consider this for the next game diplo game you join. Other then that I think you overexpanded, which crashed your tech rate. I think going through Mjmds thread might help as you both went for the cottage economy.

Scooter: Loved the diplo with you. If Ginger would have stayed I probably would have quit the game early due to lack of interesting diplo interactions. It's sad that we never got around to invading Bing together.

Superdeath: At least in the end you got revenge on your biggest foe in this game. Wait that foe was me? Can't understand why, but it doesn't matter anyway. I think you played well with the Lighthouse play and considering your position between a rock and a hard place on the map.

Mjmd: Well done, sir. Your early plot with massive settling followed by Hanging Gardens was genius and secured you the top spot. I also saw no mistake you made during the game just a solid performance. Breaking the NAP with scooter was certainly scummy after signing it a few turns early, but in the end it brought victory. I know you are still arguing that America needs a nerf at least you said so in discord. But I think it was not America that brought you the victory. No that was due to the following factors, which all happened independent or before the American UB was in play:

- The Hanging Gardens play
- Getting longterm peace from both your direct neighbors.
- Capitalizing on my mistake during the trade embargo.

Without these factors you would not have been able to lean that heavy into your cottage economy and getting the necessary great people for golden ages.


Well that's that. My last game here. Still would have hoped that would have been PB67, which looked to be a way more engaging game with a way better suited map for a diplo game. But what can you do if people want to play the same games and maps over and over again. I hope you dear lurkers had some fun with the music I provided.

[Qgqqqqq]

Well played Charriu, and godspeed. You will be missed. I enjoyed your updates especially early on, and your unique take on the game.

[Mjmd]

Not sure why you are leaving, but you will be missed.

I've enjoyed every game we've played together and I can't wait to go through and listen to the music.

[Charriu]

I'm not going specifically because of this game, just saying. Main reason for going is that MP totally bores me. I will return to single player games, which is just way more fun for me.You may have noticed that I also neglected my reports in the other games. I figured instead of doing one thing only halfheartedly it's better to make a real cut.

Thanks for playing with me. I just remembered that you played your first game with me as your neighbor in PB52 and now you've won your first game with me as your neighbor and in my last game. That's nice.

[scooter]

Picked your thread first of course. It was super entertaining going through your blow-by-blow of the early game Bing incident. I got most of it from you/him back when it happened, but it was such a bizarre and funny sequence that reliving it from your POV was super fun. That said, it also had this at the end of it.

People also tend to not build that many buildings. I would guess that I could delete half the buildings of the games and a good chunk of the player base would not notice. To me these multiplayer games just turned stale and boring. It's always the same playbook of:

- Expand fast
- Build huge armies (compared to singleplayer)
- Conquer another player
- Repeat until everybody else concedes.

Also from peeking at your chats with Superdeath, it seems like you guys briefly argued over this super recently. I think I’m a little unsure what to respond to here, because it seems your complaint sort of boils down to humans play better than AIs. “People tend to not build that many buildings” isn’t really true, but what is true is when you have a whole day for each turn, you can think about whether a building was worth building. I was definitely a “build every building” person when I first started playing these games, and then I got whooped a few times and realized I was throwing away enormous amounts of hammers for buildings that were doing nothing but providing the dopamine rush of “number goes up” even if the number itself was not making any real difference.

For example, you were at war with the #1 power in the game, and you built some monasteries rather than units. That’s clearly a mistake, as the payback horizon for a monastery (when it’s for the science and not the religious spread) is pretty weak, while the payback horizon for a military unit while at war with someone 2x your power is really high. An AI would let you get away with that though, and a human will not. Or if you are going to win Space/Culture, an AI will often simply keep racing you there anyway despite having no chance to win, while a human will look at that and realize their only way to beat you is at gunpoint. In SP the AI is there to provide resistance a lot more than it is to pursue victory to the same degree as you. It’s definitely a completely different experience.

I’d also be remiss not to point out that 2 of the 4 X’s in 4x is “eXpand” and “eXterminate” . Of course it sounds more to me like you’re simply burned out with MP Civ which I 100% get. It’s easy to go looking for reasons why that’s not fun anymore when the simple answer might be “I’ve had my fill.” That said, I do wonder if you might enjoy one of the tight map games with room for 3-5 cities per person more. I’ve really enjoyed those in the past and they play quite differently.

[scooter]

One other question I sort of have from reading this thread is uh, why did you hate Bing so much? You seem to have taken everything extremely personally with him in a way that confused me all game, but rather than find answers in this thread I’m finding it to be even more extreme in here. Did I miss something? For example, this post was from the turn Mjmd burned your city and extorted 400g (a massive sum for that phase of the game) in exchange for peace.

So in summary another good play by Mjmd that may have lasting impacts for the future. Well played.

<snip>

Just to be clear I think Mjmd is honorable and will not betray the deal. He showed honoring his deals in the past and I do not suspect him to dishonor them now.

And then in the next sentence when Bing merely moves some Skirmishers forward in case you’re about to collapse.

Lastly Bing turned up.

Bing: Only moved the skirms forward on the offchance but I head that's all between you and MJMD for now.

Charriu: Yes it's only a short episode.

So much to your previous message of "Yo, just wanted to say I am not planning to attack you (ever really) given that your other neighbour, MJMD, is popping off.
Wouldn't want to weaken his neighbour.". Bing is such an opportunist. Just to be clear I will not remove any defenders on the Bing border. I would rather Mjmd conquers all of my land then give just one city to a trickster like Bing. He does not deserve to be rewarded for this behaviour.

Maybe this will be discussed later in the thread, but I really don’t quite understand what was going on here? It made me wonder if you have some bad past history with him in another game or something, because I really can’t figure out why his actions angered you a degree of magnitude more than Mjmd’s whose actions clearly harmed you way more and more or less took you out of contention.

[Charriu]

Also from peeking at your chats with Superdeath, it seems like you guys briefly argued over this super recently. I think I’m a little unsure what to respond to here, because it seems your complaint sort of boils down to humans play better than AIs. “People tend to not build that many buildings” isn’t really true, but what is true is when you have a whole day for each turn, you can think about whether a building was worth building. I was definitely a “build every building” person when I first started playing these games, and then I got whooped a few times and realized I was throwing away enormous amounts of hammers for buildings that were doing nothing but providing the dopamine rush of “number goes up” even if the number itself was not making any real difference.

You are absolutely right about everything you said. The crucial thing though is, I don't play to win, I play to have fun. Yes, of course I could crush the AI in a single player game especially after what I learned here. But I rather experiment and take the dopamine rush of “number goes up” . That's how I remember Civ4 and that's were I want to return too.

For example, you were at war with the #1 power in the game, and you built some monasteries rather than units. That’s clearly a mistake, as the payback horizon for a monastery (when it’s for the science and not the religious spread) is pretty weak, while the payback horizon for a military unit while at war with someone 2x your power is really high. An AI would let you get away with that though, and a human will not. Or if you are going to win Space/Culture, an AI will often simply keep racing you there anyway despite having no chance to win, while a human will look at that and realize their only way to beat you is at gunpoint. In SP the AI is there to provide resistance a lot more than it is to pursue victory to the same degree as you. It’s definitely a completely different experience.

True, but that monastery was constructed in my capitol, which was my main source of income and especially beakers. I think whipping down the capitol should be the last resort and my capitol didn't have that many hammers to produce something. It probably would have only contributed one musketman, which in the grand scheme of things would not have made a difference. Same logic applied for my other cottage city Uematasu. After all I need some way to pay for all those troops.

I’d also be remiss not to point out that 2 of the 4 X’s in 4x is “eXpand” and “eXterminate” . Of course it sounds more to me like you’re simply burned out with MP Civ which I 100% get. It’s easy to go looking for reasons why that’s not fun anymore when the simple answer might be “I’ve had my fill.” That said, I do wonder if you might enjoy one of the tight map games with room for 3-5 cities per person more. I’ve really enjoyed those in the past and they play quite differently.

Thanks for the offer, but the tight map games are even less entising to me as they just enforce even more what I don't like about MP. I take “I’ve had my fill.” then.

[Charriu]

Or said in a different way. I think I'm stuck in the peter principle when it comes to Civ 4 and the best thing then would be to step back I think.