[SPOILERS PB71]Krill: By the numbers, when the walls fell (on everyone else)

[Krill]

Bah, my screenshots didn't take.

I finished LIterature with 5 gold in the bank and then motherlode gave me 202 gold, roughly five turns of maximum research.




Tech lead is pretty much unchallenged.





I need defensive units in situ, but for now I believe that with the power disparity Commodore is unlikely to try anything, especially as he can see that there are four catapults moving down.

I have the settler for the Lemon site out, and will whip the next settler T145 from 40/100. I have three more cities to settle in the south, and three in the north (plus a planned capture of a barb city) for a total number of cities of 20.





Looking at this, I may well have enough of a production edge to run with Serfdom. Given this would suggest Rep/Bureau/Serfdom/Merc/Theo plus a religion swap, and this is at least three turns of revolts. I need to plan around using a GA to finish Banking, and I want Monarchy, Feudalism, Civil Service, Guilds and Banking. I may also want Drama and Music. Engineering for Castles and road movement may also be wise to cover the coastal area. I need to work out hte tech path, even if I know Guilds>banking are the last two techs, what do I do before then?








I'm putting the excess hammers into wonders. I'm actually going to use Parthenon at Rhubarb (it's cheaper and higher culture), build SP at Pear and Apple can build the GL for the extra 22bpt (with a monastery). Given the number of beakers we need, I am OK with the time frame for SP so long as it does not get stolen, but by the time someone gets to Aesthetics I think I'll have it mostly built. The others are almost certainly safe.





Finishing the missionary to pop borders at Onion to claim the silver, copper and corn, then 6 turns HE and it will be one turning units. Except I am really struggling to improve my GNP so every other city will minimise unit builds. Size 12 gives +1fpt and 28 base hpt for 63hpt into military. With CS I can push it to size 14 and 32 base hpt (72 hpt into military) and alternate 50 hammer cats with 90 hammer knights, so the earlier I get CS the earlier I can farm the jungled grassland (and can also grow on the food neutral dye, and I want a market to help manage possible WW).

Cherry is a really good example of the benefits of moving lumber mills to MC. Production city out of nothing.





Grass hill until borders pop eot153, then corn, then copper, then grass hills and whip the granary into Zigg into walls into castle into theatre (artists to 40%) into god knows what. Windmill all the grass land, after CS farm chain to the copper. Whip until eyes bleed, because unhappiness will never be an issue now with the silk and silver.





The one advantage I have that none of the others can really match is I can directly turn food into beakers and gold with a sinple 75 hammer building. Scientists are great and all, but the others are going to cap out their expansion relatively quickly (maybe not Pindi, but he is behind which is why it takes longer). They will have to build armies, and it will crush whatever tech rate they cn put together. Maybe they get to knights in a decent time frame, but I do not believe they will be able to get past that. Commodore has Stock exchanges, but if he is put into a position he has to build an army ie I stack up, he has to follow.

If I have to, I will win via cannon. But I don't think it's going to get that far.

[greenline]

Is there any UB whose benefits to compare to Sumeria's on random, low food / low commerce maps like these? The benefits of being able to cut expenses by 25% at Priesthood - along with strong starting techs and a good UU - really seem a cut above anything else. Maybe the Cothon is comparable when you have a harbor boosting trait, but it still comes online significantly later.

[Krill]

TBH I think Sumeria is being overrated here. It's good but it's not that good.

I could have had CoL well before T120 (Not spending EP, pushing back IW) if I really, really wanted to make that happen, so right now I would be building courthouses. I save 30 hammers per city, and due to overflow etc it is easier to double whip but by this point that is just a few turns difference between getting to size 6 rather than size 4. Happiness should not be a consideration.

"Early" on I got three Ziggs down in Cherry (T84) Pomegranate (T105) and Olive (T107). The Olive one helped most but between all three they were not savnig that much. Maybe 7-9 gpt. It adds up, but really I think the benefit right now looks larger because no one else will research CoL and they are shooting themselves in the foot. All the others were built after I could have CoL.

The EP advantage, well, half of that I got through the slider, not the Ziggs.

The vultures have only really worked out due to AGG, so how do you value them in this specific game and then compare them to all possible games?

And finally, when the civs were rebalanced, they were balanced with a green map type in mind, but this map is below what I would expect is reasonable to balance for. Literally: I believe this map is below the expected acceptable level in terms of greenery, if we balanced for this level then other, more normal random mapswould also be out of whack. The one point is that in the civ rebalance Sumeria was an anchor point and if Sumeria is too strong, then the other civs should be buffed.

So...I'd dispute that this position is mainly due to Sumeria. I'd put it down to EXP (speeding everything up and cheap markets in two core commerce cities) and AGG (cheap border pops and stables food event leading into so many defensive fights) and, forgive me for this expanding to bad city locations and making them productive, unlike everyone else.

[greenline]

The zigs would definitely be weaker on a greener map. And it's absolutely not enough to guarantee a winning position from nothing - it just seems like it is an edge for these random, plains-y games that is hard to match in other Civ picks. Maybe AGG ikhandas or the +1c terrace stacks up.

I think the Vulture is just a straight up better unit in BtS. In the ancient era, you're typically being attacked with HAs or chariots, so a melee that defends better against 2 movers is just going to be more valuable, AGG or no AGG. And if you are on a small cramped map where the axe rush makes more logistical sense, the zigs are already going to be pretty worthless anyway. It makes Sumer not a 100% pick, but I would definitely pick it if I knew the settings were anything like a natural and not tiny map, or I'd be very happy to get it randomly assigned.

[Krill]

On this map, with this start, and with Shaka, any of Zulu, China or Korea would be interesting. Maya would also be an option, and that is without considering stuff like Mali or HRE (long shot). It's unfair to look at just the UB or UU, the whole civ has to be considered.

Zulu is obvious but also opens up a much more aggressive management option of both Japan and Mongolia, rather than the sit back and manage an invasion route I took.

China goes for the Machinery bulb just like Japan, and is uninvadable from T100. I'd have been laughing at Pindi as I slaughtered his samurai, but managing Mongolia would have leant more heavily on the diplomatic angle I took.

Korea would have taken a leaf out of Yuris' book and rushed to Construction, but catapults with +50% against melee and can kill? And a straightforward plan to bulb Education for +40% beakers? Able to play the long game, just need to get to Construction in one piece.

How many battles have I used vultures in? 3 vultures defended Olive in 6 battles, and then there were 6 vultures attacking wounded samurai at Rhubarb, and then I lost one vulture attacking at Rhubarb. That's it. I believe there is descrepency between what people think, with ancient era UU, and how many battles they actually fight in. Mostly it is about what you can make an opponent think, and what they have to cover against, more than what actually is done. I don't believe that the vultures themselves did that much compared to axes, but having AGG and hence easy barracks enabled them to get shock, and that had a much larger real effect, but players focus on the UU. Keep in mind that without AGG, the cultures would never have had odds to defend against HA (especially CHM Mongolia, but then it would have been close but AGG vultures still don't get odds in that instance).

Now I am not saying that Sumeria is bad. It's not. I agree with you, and everyone else that ends up saying Sumeria is probably the best civ for this map. It's definitely the right civ for the map position (surrounded by everyone, need to use minimum resources for maximum immediate effect and then win through the snowball). But it is Shaka that did the heavy lifting.

[Krill]

I should say, any requests or questions just ask. Ideally stuff that can be answered in 1k words or fewer.

[Krill]

Oh, in an early morning turn when I am not thinking straight, I decided to save gold on Engineering. Bing can see my research, Commodore can't. The scary thought is that right now my breakeven tech rate is 20%, and maybe 60bpt (depending on tile moves etc). That includes 15bpt that I get from specialists.

Engineering is a 16 turn tech for me. Thoth just triggered a GA and is finishing Alphabet and I am reconsidering the value of trade routes given no one is going to want them from me, ex cept no one can get anywhere unless I grant them OB. An issue? I will have 14 cities when the barb city grows to size 2 and I capture it (should be eot144, HA are on the way over now), so I need 28 trade routes, 42 if I shoved castles everywhere.

The other players only have 36 cities between them.

It's not even a two turn tech though, so I might just blitz it and see what I can get. Bing probably gives them, Yuri will (through fear even though I want him alive to the end game, and strong). I doubt the others do? Whilst I want to keep the game slow, if the others have OB I can't slow them down and want to grab what I can.

Here are the demographics:




Thoth has 12 turns of GA and I want to see what he does with them. If he heads to Lit I might have an issue, but a 7 pop whip would probably fix that (that would hurt, but it's worst case. I don't think I lose it, he has to generate at least 780 beakers and by that point I will have it half done). I doubt he wants SP though, but he way want Parthenon. He has HBR, Construction and Calendar down, plus Monarchy but missing MC and assuming Currency. What does he do when he is down in numbers of cities? Watch the military spike, and see if he goes back to slavery? I'm certain he is only running a small deficit to get there adn is not showing his true max GNP, but he isn't even that close to my top MFG and I'm not trying to max MFG, which is concerning for the field. And I only have three forges.

Also note Pindicator is going for Code of Laws at last. There is even a religion available.

[Krill]

I doubt he wants SP though, but he way want Parthenon. He has HBR, Construction and Calendar down, plus Monarchy but missing MC and assuming Currency.

Assumption is wrong, Thoth is researching Currency now, takes him four turns, a third of his GA.

Pathenon should be safe. GL as well.

[Krill]

Got Alphabet. Offered OB to everyone except Thoth who rejected in T141. Got the +1 hammer event on the Forge in Cherry. Down TL to 35gpt and 15bpt at max tax with no specialists. Max two more cities in the coming turns but reliant on growth and turning to wealth hammers now, not an issue given current MFG lead, military position and about to land HE for one turn units.

Oh and Thoth built research to three turn currency, due to end this turn.

[Krill]

Thoth and Commodore are only two players with Monarchy and Thoth is heading for Feudalism, 5 turns showing so 6 turns at breakeven.

Yuri, Bing and Pindi accepted OB offer. Com rejected and Thoth reoffered OB when he realised I had Alphabet. I have 2g trade routes in all cities and 3 foreign routes spare, with a settler whipped T146 and a hoped for barb city capture using those. Looks Commodore will be happy with his island city and routes from Thoth, and I'm happy with the 30 extra commerce.