American Politics Discussion Thread

[Charr Babies]

I am actually surprised the interaction seems civil, so far.

It was started with the thesis that RB was one of the rare corners of The Internet where civil discourse on complicated issues was possible.  The experiment has been inconclusive  .

Re: China and Taiwan, the One China policy had ended up a purely face saving move that allows China and the US (and to a lesser extent others) to have normal diplomatic relations and avoid the inconvenient reality that Taiwan is an independent country whose security is guaranteed by the US.  It felt like a path to peaceful reunification was being walked until China broke the "one country, two systems" agreement in Hong Kong with the National Security Law.  Now it's just a mess.

Darrell

Now, this is a better approach to a discussion; not my dick is bigger than yours pissing contest - That we all at a sudden became military experts by having played a few games of Civ.

One-country two-systems does not mean two-systems trumps one-country. If the two-systems threatens the one-country, the two-systems has to go. If there is no country, there would be no system. 

My take is that we cozied up to China and threw Taiwan under the bus because we wanted to have China on our side against the Soviets during the Cold War. Before we backstabbed Taiwan, we propped up Kuomintang (Taiwan) way back when because they seem to be winning the civil war at the time. Taiwan is no more than a condom. I have no delusions we the west, stir up shit around the globe for world peace or humanity. We just want to stay dominant, as long as the world is in chaos, we are it.

[darrelljs]

Western liberal values generally do well for European heritage countries. They've done well for a few countries outside the West (Japan being the best example, but Taiwan is also a good example). But I look at a place like Singapore, which is for all intents and purposes a police state, and I have no issue with it. I suspect China would evolve there on its own and be fine, and I don't think fighting an ideological war with them has any more to do with our security than fighting in Vietnam did. Supporting Ukraine is different.

Darrell

[Charr Babies]

Japan did great up until it threatened the US economically in auto and tech circa 80s, and got a slap in the face. It is still doing ok but far from its former glory.
From small to large
Lee Hsien Loong approval rating ~71% roughly 42 mil
Biden's approval rating ~41% roughly 123 mil
Tsai Ing Wen approval rating ~46% roughly 11 mil
Xi Jing Ping approval rating ~87% roughly 1.22 billion

Whatever we might think of other governments, their history and culture, we would be fools to talk shit about a government with high approval rating, instead of learning from them.

[Mjmd]

Hello. Your state controls the media including the internet. People who disagree with the government disappear or face other consequences. Here is a poll about if you support the government. Do you???

We had a talk earlier in this thread about the questions and methodology involved in polling vastly affecting the outcome. Taking polls at face value is always questionable and usually not wise (and this was a very left leaning poll and a descent number of us described it as garbage still)

In general I'm a big believer in democracy's over autocracies. I in fact wrote a whole defense for democracy earlier in this thread. Its not really because of their efficiency, but rather accountability and transfer of power.

[greenline]

Here in the liberalist liberal democracy that is the USA, we have our own censorship industrial complex too. It's not nearly as violent as the Chinese counterpart, nor as obvious, but it is still there, and there are plenty of voices asking to make it bigger and nastier.

It really is just like 1984!

[Charr Babies]

Hello. Your state controls the media including the internet. People who disagree with the government disappear or face other consequences. Here is a poll about if you support the government. Do you???

That's is speaking out of prejudice and pure ignorance. 

The survey was co-sponsored by the Harvard Kennedy School’s Ash Center for Democratic Governance and Innovation, Chinese President Xi Jinping had the highest approval rating, both at home and abroad...

but rather accountability

Weapon Of Mass Destruction




It is going to take me awhile to get over what you just posted   WoW!!!!!!!

[Mjmd]

I sense some ad hominem at the last there. Please try to stay on logical arguments only. Also, when you post a poll link the source.

The Mike Pompeo clip is Tu Quo Que - you too do bad things. Just because America did / probably still does bad things it DOES NOT mean that other people don't either and it doesn't make what they do ok. I find this logical fallacy also usually goes with equality fallacy. IE one thing does not always equal another.

And ya I don't think anyone defends what Bush did. Well not many.

[Charr Babies]

It's not whataboutism. the youtube and image link is calling your bs about accountability.

While you accuses another party of atrocities based purely on speculation. and ignorance

[Mjmd]

So accountability in democracy isnt always perfect. But let's compare. We know they lied to us. Most people now agree on this. Is this the accountability that is deserved? No, far from. But how many people never trusted Republicans after that. How many votes has that swayed? It's not perfect and I'm not saying it couldn't be better, but I'm saying information and ability to discuss and say "this thing my government did was bad and we should do better" is better than having no one who can question your actions. No one who can talk about the truth. No mechanism to stop you.

I find in general these democracy vs autocracy arguments mainly revolve around democracies not being perfect. I'll never claim that. I'm saying that democracies give a better chance at getting better and accountability. It's not guarenteed, it takes work, but the only chance an autocracy has is that the leader dies and they either become a democracy or get a better leader next time round. I'm not even saying there havent been "great" autocrats. If you look at golden age history of x country you can find quite a few. And then that history usually ends with "and then they died".

When I'm back at my computer I'll try to refind the link to prior discussion we had on this which also goes more into accountability and to who.

[Mjmd]

A simpler way to look at is to look at situations of human rights abuses or corruption. In a democracy there is a CHANCE with WORK that you can fix those issues. Its not always a steady progression forward, but it CAN occur. If you look at corruption index vs democracy index there is a very strong correlation. Its not that total story of course, but it doesn't hurt to have mechanisms of accountability.