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[PB72 SPOILERS] Aetryn learns humility

T168-175: Frenetic turn pace continues

There are good and bad points to having a fast turn pace. The good thing is that obviously the game moves faster, you don't have to wait as long for stuff to happen, more action, etc. The bad thing is it's harder to report effectively. The turns kind of blend into each other when nothing particular stands out, and you make a bunch of small decisions that collectively just don't seem that interesting to report on. Even though these turns were a Golden Age for me, there really wasn't all that much going on.

Technology:
This was the big focus of the Golden Age - hitting my technological goals. MJMD and I had some discussions about diverting to Divine Right on the way to Nationalism and building Spiral Minaret in Hope. But I couldn't get anyone to trade me Stone - both seem to be using it to build Castles at the moment, and without Stone it just didn't make enough sense right now given that I'm still feeling short of power. So I went Philosophy, spent one turn getting Liberalism close enough to finish in one turn later, then went to Nationalism, Alphabet, and Printing Press. I have enough left in the bank to finish Replaceable Parts and Gunpowder in the next 3 turns, then I have the option of using Liberalism on Rifling or just research it myself. Odds are strong I'll use Liberalism here for timing and because it's the most expensive tech I expect to research for a while.

Greenline meanwhile wrapped up Replaceable Parts, inserted Education before Gunpowder (understandable), but then unexpectedly went to Chemistry next over Rifles. I'm not sure what to make of this - precursor to Cannons for Steel? Making a run at Railroad for Mining Inc? Maybe he has Workshops he wants to make better? Bing's path was also odd. After finishing Alphabet and Printing Press, Bing next went to Gunpowder (not Replaceable Parts), then Philosophy and Nationalism. I wasn't expecting Nationalism here because he has yet to fire his third Golden Age, but he has a couple turns to do that and probably intends to. Anyway, what I thought were my opponents heading straight to Rifling clearly isn't, and I may well end up being first there.

Cities:
I had one spectacular turn for new cities when 3 settlers all happened to reach their destination and found new cities all at the same time:



Freshwater fish, lake tiles, and some very slight possibility if Greenline and I stay friendly that I can get a worker the long way around and improve that silver.


No food bonuses at all, but farmable grassland, more lake tiles, and grassland hills, should be able to do SOMETHING useful with this city, maybe production.


Also no food bonuses, but it's effectively a crumple zone city and I can chain farm enough to let it grow a bit.

Discipline, Obedience, and Loyalty are all "hard virtues" that are not highly valued by American culture at the moment. There's practically no loyalty in the work world (by either the companies or the workers), and not much more in personal relationships it seems. And Americans practically encourage people not to be obedient.

Amusingly, founding all these cities seems to have caused Greenline to log in immediately after. I'm wondering if he was afraid I was taking some area on our borders (nope, just filler cities off in the wilds that was clearly mine).

Beyond that, I wrapped up Universities in the 5 cities necessary to get Oxford started in my capital, finished off some buildings my production cities had never got around to (temple, courthouse, etc), and the rest of the Empire did the same with more basic infrastructure. I also ended the Golden Age with 12 Banks built, so saving money should go pretty fast in subsequent turns.

Foreign Affairs:
These turns were quiet other than my continued failure to get a stone trade going again. There's a war on, but nobody is actually fighting it. Greenline looked like they were going to wait for Rifling to absorb the last parts of Xist, but then didn't actually go to Rifling, so I don't know what the plan is there. I'm unlikely to move south against Xist at any point soon and am really only staying in this war because Greenline hasn't peaced out. Unless Bing and Greenline get into a war that's unlikely to change, so if it becomes advantageous I might well seek peace with Xist. But right now there's no real benefit to me to doing so, so I'm preferring not to upset Greenline. Also, at the VERY end of this set of turns Greenline finally broke our Espionage stalemate (we had both been stalled at 42 with each other to get graphs but nothing else). That's a bit ominous, but not entirely unexpected.

Taj Mahal:
With Nationalism secured, construction of Taj Mahal began in Forgiveness:



This picture is with 2 first-ring forests chopped. I will follow with another first and second ring, and then position 3 workers on the 3 lumber mills and chop those when I have 180 hammers to go to finish Taj. Estimated completion is Turn 185 or 186, will have to check my math for exact details.


Turn 175 Report:

Here's the core of the Empire:



The Western Valley:



The Lakes District:



The Southeast Wastes:



Graphs:












Thoughts on the Graphs:
I overtopped Bing's GNP while both of us were in a Golden Age. Good sign! And it didn't stay ridiculously high for all of that time, hopefully making it less obvious that my GNP is really, really good right now. Crop Yield being stuck in third is a visible symbol of my utter failure in the Second Roman War, where both Greenline and Bing made gains and I killed annoying border cities and only resettled one of them. I'm hoping to make up for this by continuing to settle my filler sites, and having settlers on hand to claim a couple of border sites currently swallowed by the culture of the Roman holy city. You know, assuming Greenline ever takes it. Power continues to look dangerously low, but drafting Rifles is not far off, at which point most of the units that have been built so far become less useful anyway. I included the Espionage graphs to show how late Greenline was to build Courthouses.

Improvement Stats:



City List:



Xist's Army Disposition as of T175:

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Well, I made a brutal mistake.

T178 I wanted to wait and see what Bing selected for researching before I played, since it would affect my tech choice (I have tech vision). So even though Xist had logged in and played, when I logged in I immediately changed my mind about playing my turn and logged back out. Then later that afternoon in a few spare moments between work and dinner I noticed that Bing had played, so I logged back in and saw that Bing was on something that didn't effect me, so I ended turn.

But I never actually played the turn! I never went through and moved units, and I never looked at my cities, which I usually do every turn to see what they are producing. I realized it a bit later and was like eh, so I lose worker moves for one turn, it's not that big of deal.

Well, it was a big deal to someone who actually sent units to attack me on T178, that I didn't bother to respond to because I didn't play my turn.

Someone who then razed a city T179 without me even realizing the city was under attack.

Anyway, this involves combat results, and it was totally my fault for getting discombobulated and thinking I'd already done unit moves and city inspections when I hadn't, and assuming all I had to do with my turn was check the tech selection and go. So I don't think it's fair to ask for a reload, nor do I think it would be granted.

But this pretty much ruins my game. I was already dubious on how playing was interacting with my life (work, prayer, other commitments), and this just solidifies the fact that I shouldn't be playing this game. So I'm going to scale back my level of effort, make sure my turns get played, but not spend a lot of time on it - just defend, select reasonable techs, and get on with life. I will probably report significantly less going forward, just summaries of where things are at.

Sorry to all who were enjoying a fairly tense 3-way game, but hopefully this clears the way for an actual clash between Bing and Greenline, since they don't need to worry much about me now.
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Oh wow, that hurts.

I'd recommend trying to focus and play a turn or two as well as possible (this is very much "do as I say", not necessarily anything I'd have the perseverance to actually do). After that, see how it feels. It may not become clear how much damage has genuinely been done for a little while. People have come back to relevance, or even to win, from nasty surprises before ... and presumably whoever didn't attack you has some interest in helping you prevent the agressor making too many gains?

That is, assuming that the game is not getting too much in the way of RL. Priorities, and all that.
It may have looked easy, but that is because it was done correctly - Brian Moore
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(August 29th, 2023, 15:08)shallow_thought Wrote: Oh wow, that hurts.

I'd recommend trying to focus and play a turn or two as well as possible (this is very much "do as I say", not necessarily anything I'd have the perseverance to actually do). After that, see how it feels. It may not become clear how much damage has genuinely been done for a little while. People have come back to relevance, or even to win, from nasty surprises before ... and presumably whoever didn't attack you has some interest in helping you prevent the agressor making too many gains?

That is, assuming that the game is not getting too much in the way of RL. Priorities, and all that.

Nah, Xist razing a city isn't going to let him come back and win the game. But it largely drops me out of a close run race with Greenline and Bing, and more than that, it's clear that I can't give the right kind of focus to the game - i .e. enough to play well, not enough to invade the rest of my life. I'm not going to hand the game to anyone, but I'm just scaling back the amount of thinking I'm doing about the game.
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Getting caught up with one part of a turn and forgetting other things is pretty common. This was just a really bad turn for it to happen.

For the record I still think Aetryn has a shot, but now Aetryn has to choose between coin flipping for economics merchant and getting rifles. I don't think Xist will go farther (lot of slow marching turns involved which as seen are pretty bad to do) and even if he does I think Aetryn could push him back without rifles, but I understand either decision Aetryn makes. Bing also took Taj with a great engineer which also hurts.

My recommendation is to keep playing to win (I would go for coinflip merchant here) and also to play at consistent reasonable times to reduce stress. I understand the feeling though of a game you've gotten so caught up in. For those who just read these but haven't played it can be quite an emotional roller coaster which can definitely eat at you.
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Man that sucks Aetryn. I will say that y'all have been playing at a blazing pace. It's perfectly reasonable if it's not realistic for that to continue. I hope you can find a place for this game, though I absolutely understand if you choose to scale back. I've been there.
Erebus in the Balance - a FFH Modmod based around balancing and polishing FFH for streamlined competitive play.

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Turn Report: 179-181

I moved a bunch of forces from the east and west wings of my empire to demonstrate to Xist that he should retreat his stack. He did, and it's now back in the south where I have city visibility on it. I chose to research Liberalism->Nationalism for two reasons - one is that it's just a much simpler choice to get the rifles started, build up a bunch of defensive forces and then I don't have to spend a lot of mental energy trying to make sure I'm not a loot pinata for whoever wants to attack me (and then further mental energy managing war turns), and the other is that I'd rather Greenline get the first-time bonus and have an interesting fight against Bing than spike his chances, and possibly tick him off, leading me into a war that I have to spend mental energy defending from. I saved a bunch of gold + got failgold from Bing sniping Taj Mahal with an engineer and decided to upgrade a pair of 5/2 Macemen just to simplify pushing forward to resettle Prudence (and again, just want to get the empire defenses up ASAP). Techwise I'm heading for Railroad and will make some attempt to get Mining Inc just to act like a competitive AI in forcing the real players to get to things before me, but I'm not going to come up with a complicated plan to optimize the path, and I don't REALLY expect to get it. After that, probably Constitution and Democracy for Civics. If I can't generate a third GA effectively I'll just eat a turn of Anarchy to get into final Civics. I put Espionage on an even 3-way split because I mostly don't want to adjust it and I don't want to favor/hurt anyone in particular. I think Bing has this game at this point. Greenline needed to take most of Xist and probably some of me efficiently, and hasn't done that, and Bing's power spike with MoM GAs+Taj GA is at least as good or better than what Greenline has done with Representation+Mercantalism+Cataphracts. I probably should have been trying to produce an Engineer specifically for Taj if I wanted to build it. I settled a new city NW of Justice for deer and whales, but I don't really feel like coming up with a theme name for it anymore, so it's just going to end up with a default name.

So, let's reflect a bit on why this game format isn't a good fit for me. This won't be anything startling, but maybe it will help other greens or potential greens think about the way they interact with games a bit more.

Reason #1: I have a habit of playing games iteratively.
What I mean by that is that I'm both somewhat of a perfectionist, in that I know how I want my games to go and more or less how to make them go there, but that I'm also not very careful in execution. So if I meant to execute steps A>B>C>D>E>F for my plan, there's a good chance I botched one of those steps when I went to actually execute it in the game. So I reload from a save (I habitually save extremely frequently) and fix the mistake. I neither want to live with the failure of the plan, nor do I want to take games so seriously that I never make a mistake. Of course, that works fine in single player, but it obviously can't work in a multiplayer situation for many reasons, even if the players would tolerate constant reloading. I've made sooo many mistakes just in managing the Civ 4 interface, from accidentally declining diplomacy deals to wrong scout movements. Turn 180 I accidentally moved a random single pike from Temperance directly toward a Greenline city. This is 100% the kind of thing I would have just reloaded the autosave and not made the stupid mistake. Fortunately here it doesn't seem to have caused Greenline to panic and I just put it back into the city on Turn 181. More substantively, I've been making mistakes setting up 2-pop whips all game that in the past I would just reload to the previous turn and fix. Of course, I could fix this with practice. But honestly I'm not sure I actually want to be more serious about how I play games. I play them to relax and have fun. Being able to NOT have to be so careful with the mechanics of the game is part of why I enjoy them.  I'd consider playing a game like Old World in this format, because it has mechanics in place to allow you to fix single-turn oopsies at least (all combat is deterministic, so you can undo->redo your turn as much as you want and it doesn't really matter, except with scouting really). Old World also isn't as well "solved" by this community as Civ 4 is at this point, so small mistakes aren't going to be as punished as screwing up something basic like 2-pop whipping. But I'd be somewhat skeptical that even that would go well.
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I meant to mention this, but after oxford and those two universities are done can quickly go top of tree for heroic and national epic. National Epic is your way to a 3rd GA. Or just getting one of the other late game specialists along with hopefully Humility and Hope producing different ones.

I will say the only way you could have gotten an engineer for Taj in time is to dilute the pool with national epic much earlier. Could have, but I didn't think it was necessary. Honestly it might be a mistake by Bing to have gone nationalism and used his GE. Mining Inc will be much better.

I'm not as much of a perfectionist as you've described, but I am to some extent so I get the pain. You put tons of hours of work in and then some little mistake happens ruining it all. And mind you your opponents can also always just play better. Again, don't know how to teach having that detached mind set other than accumulating mental callouses from it happening a lot..... which isn't fun. Now a days I like just doing little things nicely along the way. Realizing those nice little things probably won't matter, but having fun doing them anyways.
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Yep, I think that one of the key characteristics of good MP Civ players is that they are consistent. They just play each turn the same way, making it less likely that something is forgotten or overlooked. Some of this can be learnt - or dealt with using a checklist. Read the event log; check the score reports from the game tracker; move scout units before doing anything else (diplomacy windows play merry hell with some of this, of course); at turn end, check every city - every tile being worked! - ro make sure it's correct. Write down planned whips as many turns ahead as possible as a double-check. Personally, none of this is easy, and I don't think it's particularly fun.

That said, the real problems for me was the way the game took over my brain (not in a productive way) and the stress of dealing with the things beyond control (other players). For some people, perhaps after enough practice (or if they just came to it young enough?), this can be compartmentalised - relax, play an hour of civ, relax again - but it's not a mental trick I think I could have learnt.
It may have looked easy, but that is because it was done correctly - Brian Moore
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(August 30th, 2023, 14:14)shallow_thought Wrote: Yep, I think that one of the key characteristics of good MP Civ players is that they are consistent. They just play each turn the same way, making it less likely that something is forgotten or overlooked. Some of this can be learnt - or dealt with using a checklist. Read the event log; check the score reports from the game tracker; move scout units before doing anything else (diplomacy windows play merry hell with some of this, of course); at turn end, check every city - every tile being worked! - ro make sure it's correct. Write down planned whips as many turns ahead as possible as a double-check. Personally, none of this is easy, and I don't think it's particularly fun.

That said, the real problems for me was the way the game took over my brain (not in a productive way) and the stress of dealing with the things beyond control (other players). For some people, perhaps after enough practice (or if they just came to it young enough?), this can be compartmentalised - relax, play an hour of civ, relax again - but it's not a mental trick I think I could have learnt.

I do play my single player turns this way - all non-worker moves, then workers, then city checks, then tech, Espionage, and large-scale decisions. In fact, this is probably part of what caused the problem, because I didn't play the parts of my turn that didn't depend on tech when waiting for Bing to select a tech, and then when I came back to the turn I made the tech decision and just naturally assumed everything else that was done before tech was in fact done when I had actually skipped it. I think what had motivated me to not do that was not wanting to split my turn and have part of it hours later than another part, as this could have caused problems if Bing was declaring on me or something.

I do tend to glaze over doing city checks when the city count gets large, especially when I haven't had my head in the space for a while - but on successive turns in single player this usually isn't a problem because I have a clear idea of the narrative of each city from having just played the turn before. But I think I'll go into that more in a later reflection.
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