[Spoilers]Pindicator With All the First Strikes in PB71

[Miguelito]

i mean that anybody who looks at the score and thinks I'm in second place this game isn't paying attention

But that isn't what no score is about at all. As Mjmd says, the essential part is whips being visible on PBspy, and city founding/conquest/razes. Which often in the early game amounts to C&D with out-of-game info. My prime example is PB49. I was neighbours with Ruff and was worrying he might come at me. Then I saw on PBspy that superdeath, whom I had not even met, was exchanging cities with him, and was able to conclude that I was safe on that front.
Of course more mundane are pre-invasion whipping sprees, monitoring development of techs of players you haven't met (wonder races!), etc.
I found this sort of out of game info influencing our decisions bullshit and haven't ever missed score. If you say it's useless, what is the reason to keep it then?

pindicator

Somehow I'm #2 in score.  This is prime example why hidden score is a silly mod.

Yeah I have never understood why anyone likes it. Nobody makes decisions based on scoreboard position. Might as well also remove the demo screen and graphs too.

Well I hope I have explained why somebody may like it . And I think almost everybody makes decisions based on score increases on PBspy.

Graphs, in contrast, is C&D that you have to invest into with EP, and of course only helps you with in game contacts, which makes sense. 4

In a strict application of the principle yes, the demo screen would have to go, however I think many people would miss it, it might be a hassle to mod, and it doesn't really break much (although in the 4 player AW game it gave a lot of unearned info on specific players, but in larger games it's rather a general "where am I with respect to the field" which I suppose doesn't hurt much)

[Mjmd]

The solution Mig is that in a couple months one of us needs to start a game with no score mod just as auto included like Commodore did with huts and events in PB74 or SD does with no barbs in any game he starts lol.

[Tarkeel]

i mean that anybody who looks at the score and thinks I'm in second place this game isn't paying attention

But that isn't what no score is about at all. As Mjmd says, the essential part is whips being visible on PBspy, and city founding/conquest/razes. Which often in the early game amounts to C&D with out-of-game info. My prime example is PB49. I was neighbours with Ruff and was worrying he might come at me. Then I saw on PBspy that superdeath, whom I had not even met, was exchanging cities with him, and was able to conclude that I was safe on that front.
Of course more mundane are pre-invasion whipping sprees, monitoring development of techs of players you haven't met (wonder races!), etc.
I found this sort of out of game info influencing our decisions bullshit and haven't ever missed score. If you say it's useless, what is the reason to keep it then?

pindicator

Somehow I'm #2 in score.  This is prime example why hidden score is a silly mod.

Yeah I have never understood why anyone likes it. Nobody makes decisions based on scoreboard position. Might as well also remove the demo screen and graphs too.

Well I hope I have explained why somebody may like it . And I think almost everybody makes decisions based on score increases on PBspy.

Graphs, in contrast, is C&D that you have to invest into with EP, and of course only helps you with in game contacts, which makes sense. 4

In a strict application of the principle yes, the demo screen would have to go, however I think many people would miss it, it might be a hassle to mod, and it doesn't really break much (although in the 4 player AW game it gave a lot of unearned info on specific players, but in larger games it's rather a general "where am I with respect to the field" which I suppose doesn't hurt much)

I do agree that information about players you haven't met can be deduced, but for the late medieval/early renaissance period onwards (basically, post-paper) you can track whips manually by recording the size of every enemy city. I'd rather not have to do that.

As for the demo screen, in a smaller field of up to say 8 players, you can quite reliably calculate the values for every other player in the first 50 or so turns, to determine if they are commpeting in wonder races or the like. It's a fair amount of work though.

In general, I'm willing to accept that civ4 is a very leaky game with regards to information.

[pindicator]

Keep in mind that PBSpy is not always accurate in tracking whips individually. Often it will combine several into one score decrease.

179

3 turns from Guilds now. I started pre-building horse archers in a few locations. Capital is building a chariot because I realize I need to scout some of this map since I'm actually going to survive longer now.




I'm actually more excited about getting to Civil Service and filling all those plains up with farms

[scooter]

But that isn't what no score is about at all. As Mjmd says, the essential part is whips being visible on PBspy, and city founding/conquest/razes. Which often in the early game amounts to C&D with out-of-game info. My prime example is PB49. I was neighbours with Ruff and was worrying he might come at me. Then I saw on PBspy that superdeath, whom I had not even met, was exchanging cities with him, and was able to conclude that I was safe on that front.
Of course more mundane are pre-invasion whipping sprees, monitoring development of techs of players you haven't met (wonder races!), etc.
I found this sort of out of game info influencing our decisions bullshit and haven't ever missed score. If you say it's useless, what is the reason to keep it then?

Because everything you wrote sounds like a positive to me and not a negative. I think all of those things that you said are bad are actually good, more or less.


Trying to drill down a bit more, I think the first 70ish turns of Civ4 MP is not very interesting, which is why I have repeatedly roped people into playing more varied games in the past. Removing more info just makes those turns more dull. I don't go super in-depth with C&D, but looking for Things Happening on PBSpy in opening turns is one of the only interesting things happening often.

[pindicator]

184

Guilds is in just in time. Thoth is coming




A knight finished in Botvinnik last turn. I upgraded the axe there to a Samurai. With 10 units off of boats he should still burn the city, but at least this should make it difficult. Meanwhile I also have 4 catapults and 6 samurai from Euwe. I'm hoping I can hold it to him burning Botvinnik and that being all. I also moved all my samurai in the core up to counter: if he is going to hit the east then I am going to do what I can to dissuade him in the west.

The game seemed to acknowledge my troubles here, and gave me a lifeline before the gold is lost next turn:

[pindicator]

pre 185

No turn yet, but I logged in to get an idea what Thoth is invading with:







Only surprise is how long it took.

Anyway, I think I lose the east at a minimum (another reason I was reluctant to ever settle that way earlier, for all you lurker critics). I don't see how Krill doesn't swoop in and pick up my shrine city next. And then like the Pac-12 last month, I might get left with the pieces nobody really wants.

[pindicator]

186

Not great




I sacced a samurai to kill one of his Guerilla2 longbows and a horse archer.  Earned a great general.

Going to have to bank on his boats either being (1) empty or (2) willing to go north to take out Smyslov

[pindicator]

188 Pre-Turn

We got EP vision on Thoth's nearest city this turn, which was rather huge and confirmed what I suspected:




The large group that he flashed at the start of the war is likely heading east. You can see I've already started moving my samurai stack, but now I'm reconsidering: perhaps it is better to try and keep those forces pinned down in the west. Especially since his horse archers are far more mobile than my infantry.

The second big news is that Thoth did not try to push through my trireme and burn Tal and they did not continue north to burn Smyslov, which gives more weight to my guess that they are empty. However he could also just be pulling them back to join in on Botvinnik. Still, there was easy pickings to be had in the north.

The third big news is that I think I can burn Thoth's siege stack this turn. Not pointed out in the screenshot are 6 knights and 4 catapults within striking range (thanks to my 2 great generals).

[pindicator]

188

Almost everything went to plan.

First I had to assign Great Generals in such a way that the backmost knights were able to get the General and promote to Morale:




I had 6 knights in the area and every knight was going to be able to join the attack.  3 knights went to each GG, and my wounded samurai joined in the Sargon group to be able to heal up more with a second promotion.  Getting C3 on the knights was a big advantage:  the top Guerilla 2 longbow was defending with a strength of 12.6.

First step was to send in the catapults.  I only had 4 in the east but i figured this was the spot to use them as I wanted to lose as few knights as possible:

Code:

Barrage2 catapult vs G2 longbow:  0% - longbow to 74hp, damage to a crossbow
Drill2 catapult vs 74hp G2 longbow:  8.39% - WITHDRAW, longbow to 25hp, barrage to 3 crossbows
Barrage1 catapult vs G2 crossbow: 1.21% - loss, collateral to 2 crossbows
Barrage1 catapult vs G2 crossbow: 1.21% - loss, collateral to 1 crossbow

Immensely lucky result on the second catapult.  I did Drill2 on a whim to try to counter some of the longbow's first strikes and was rewarded with a very lucky withdraw.  Thoth had only brought one longbow and the crossbows would not defend as well against my knights.

Now it was time for the knights.  Didn't mess around with breakpoints here, just sent in strongest against strongest.  My C3 Knight was getting 77% odds so I should do well, but there was certainly room to have a loss or two here:

Code:

C3 Knight vs G2 Crossbow: 77.22% - WIN, 6 seige units flanked
C3 Knight vs 90hp G2 Crossbow: 81.86% - WIN, 4 seige units flanked
C3 Knight vs 85hp G2 Crossbow: 90.44% - WIN, 5 seige units flanked
92hp C3 Knight vs 85hp G2 Crossbow: 88.07% - WIN, 4 siege units flanked
C2 Morale Knight vs 85HP Crossbow: 97.81% - WIN, 6 siege units flanked
C1 Morale Knight vs 70hp CR3 Sword: 99.39% - WIN, 6 siege units flanked

No losses!  Thoth's siege were getting chewed up with the flanking but sadly nothing had died.  I really need more knights.  From here my fights were all in the upper 90s and I didn't lose a single unit.  Thoth's stack was decimated, but sadly I didn't wipe out all his siege.  I just didn't have enough hitters.

Here is what things looks like at the end:




Again, I'm now thinking it's probably better to move the samurai up to threaten his cities in the west and try to gain peace that way.  Looking at things now, I really just need to transfer some catapults to the east and I should be fine there - I have units enough unless he brings everything to the east.  Next turn I'll probably do just that.

The rest of the battles, for those of you who like such details:

Code:

Samurai vs 25hp G2 Longbow: 99.51% - WIN
Samurai vs 76hp Axe: 99.31% - WIN
Samurai vs 89hp Catapult: 99.36% - WIN
80hp C2 Samurai vs 76hp Catapult: 99.76% - WIN
Drill2 Samurai vs 63hp Catapult: 100% - WIN
Drill3 C1 Samurai vs 52hp Catapult: 100% - WIN
Longbow vs 37hp Sword: 99.91% - WIN
Longbow vs 54hp Treb: 100% - WIN

I offered Thoth peace:




Tactically he could try to hold on to Euwe and make me earn it, but I'm pretty sure I can take it back.  Strategically it might be smarter for him to cut his losses before he loses more units and also the city - in other words, will he repeat the mistake I made earlier when I invaded him?

The game rewarded me some more at end of turn: